Read well my line Pipiolo. yes you're right they (Garrincha, Best and Maradona - or even Cruijff, Ronaldo ...) could have turned any defender inside out, but how often is to differentiate them. Maradona (along with Pele) was named as the MOST FOULED player in soccer history for a reason - that's the most effective way to STOP him. Best (like Ronaldo) has fewer peak years with great performance (in dribbling run to be comparable to TOP5 bests) whereas Maradona and Garrincha did almost years in years out over their career. DIFFERENCE
I absolutely believe that some of the defenders mentioned were as defender near or next to the Bergomi class but it is impossible that all of those names are of that class. Otherwise it is a big shame that England did not qualify for 1974 and 1978 world cup.
Other example is Eddie McCreadie. If he was that good, why has he only 20 caps for Scotland? Had he (all-time) team selections?
Anyway, think that two basic things are now forgotten: - English defenders are indeed more attacking minded than Italian ones, so to shine against Italians as attacker is harder. - This is further aggravated by the fact that Italians, even in the 70s, were allowed to do more and could use more means to stop an attacker.
[But, England did WIN the WC in '66, finish 3rd in the '68 ENC AND went on their solid run in the '70 WC w/several of the names listed (Jimmy Armfield, Jack Charlton, Brian Labone, Bobby Moore, Ray Wilson, etc. etc.), so...]
So that makes it actually more likely that such a player amasses a reasonable amount of caps isn't it?
[I thought that you were trying to tie McCreadie in to your whole England failing to qualify for the '74 WC, etc., line of reasoning...]
[In that case, McCreadie actually won twenty-three career caps for Scotland: which w/the average number of international fixtures that Scotland played in that era sounds about right IMO. But, I would really consider McCreadie to be a "2nd tier" wide defender of that era; below the likes of Emlyn Hughes, Ray Wilson, etc. Which, once again, is a testament to both the depth and width at full-back/wide defender that was available in the Football Lge. of that era...]
I agree England NT from 66-70 were the best there were in international class thru out history of English football - following with 90 and 02 teams. However that was sue more to the whole team effort (team work) rather than depending solely on defense a la Italy82, France 98 or Italy 06... Note that if you can see most great defenders (CB or sideback) were found in those teams - not for no reason
There you go again ... Put it simple name me any 5-7 names (Best had to face in EPL 60's) that would belong to TOP10-20 ALL TIMES defender category? I am fraid those name could NOT even make to TOP50 or 100 (besides, Moore of course) Maradona faced at least 10 ALL TIMES BEST DF in SerieA of the 80's
While Pele, Zico Rivelino ... were "underated" in dribble skills, Best was a bit "too much HYPED" with his dribbling skills. He was among TOP5 best dribblers agree, but NOT THE BEST as "some Eurocentric" might claim PERIOD
[There you go again, mate: just making-up what I supposedly said and BLATANTLY putting words in my mouth so that you can the counter a claim/statement that I NEVER actually MADE all so that you can supposedly "win" a "debate" that I wasn't trying to make in the FIRST PLACE. Please go back and READ the POINT that I actually STATED: IMO, "M10" was a better/more effective ball-mover in central positions on the pitch while Best was better/more effective w/the ball at his feet in wide areas/as a winger. Thank you in advance... ]
I ddid not mean you (claiming Best was best dribbler) I got your point and it's "reasonable" as I said last time..
Here's what Rothmans had to say about Mike England in the 1969-70 season: Mike England Tottenham Hotspur & Wales, 11 votes Mike England, the Welshman whose name causes confusion when he scored in an international match against England, is not everybody’s choice as the main centre back in the Golden Boots team. Some will claim that he is a better player only when ‘propped’ up by Terry Hennessey in the Walsh team, or when he had Peter Collins alongside him in the Tottenham lineup. But whatever criticism is offered against this very fine and sporting professional, we are sure that he would jump at the chance of playing in a rearguard four with Bobby Moore! It must be heart-breaking for a centre forward to play against England. He looks, and is, big. A fierce and accurate header of the ball, he also covers ground in the penalty area as if wearing seven league boots. And when he lopes upfield for corners and free kicks it usually takes two men to cover him.
[BTW, I don't know many "Eurocentric" people that follow the game that go around claiming that the likes of Pele, Rivelino & Zico are given too much credit when they had the ball at their feet, mate...]
[I was going to point this out that this was definitely an area where Best was superior to Pele in response to an earlier post about Best v. Pele as a "better" all-'round footballer...]
[We're also talking about from say '63 to around '72 here; so most of these eligible defenders woundn't have been around to help England qualify for the '74 & '78 editions of the WC. By '74-'78 Best was plying his trade w/the likes of Cork Celtic and the LA Aztecs of the NASL, mate...]
[Great info, mate: another GREAT central defender (sometimes wide defender) whose name often gets forgotten in this era is Wolves and England hero Ron Flowers...]