Of course he did! Mr. Bennett does not have a *#*#*#*#ing clue. Then again most Brits no little of what goes on football wise outside of their own peninsula.
Of course - you're quite correct. Chivu is at Roma. I forgot. Sorry. [Rant] However, the rest of it stands. I watched Nesta and Cannavaro when Italy played Poland recently - you're right - they were, to use your own superlatives, awesome. To be fair Cannavaro was taken off about half time - presumably for being too awesome. However - funny thing this.. They actually lost by 3 goals to 1. How strange... It appears that the Poles also know nothing about football as well because they clearly don't know that you're not supposed to score against great defenders. Personally I think the problem the Italians had was that the Poles were too unsophisticated and just kept lumping the ball up-field and that's not a tactic that awesome defenders are able to cope with - it's not awesome enough for them. [/Rant] Like I said fellas - you can't really compare defenders across teams and certainly not across leagues - it simply doesn't make much sense. At least not for those of us who atually know something about the game - like how to play it as opposed to woffle about on discussion boards. Personally I think that Nesta and Cannavaro ARE great defenders - I'm simply questioning this ludicrous assumption that they must be the best because they play in Italy. You say that Italy won the WC 3 times - does anyone remember the first couple?
Nesta and Cannavaro aren't the best because they play in Italy. They're the best because they are as fast if not faster than most attackers, they anticipate every pass well and read the play, they tackle hard and accurately, and when they win the ball they start the attack quickly and effeciently.
Exactly. Thanks for setting the record straight. Andy, was that the first football match you have ever watched? An Englishman has no business frowning on Italy's record at the World Cup. Its been 37 years since you won one.
Like I said, they're great defenders - but like I also said, to make a statement that they are, or enyone else for that matter, is better than another player in another team in another league ilustrates how little you know about the game. You say that Nesta and Cannavaro are quick and tackle accurately, that's true... but Cannavaro in particular tends to have a bit of a problem when the balls lumped into the centre simply because of his height. If he were playing in England he'd struggle against an old fashioned English centre forward when the balls in the air. He is better suited to the Italian league where the ball tends to be played forward by the team that's attacking, unless they're in the lead in which case they tend to get everyone behind the ball and hit the other team on the break. In both cases the issue of the physical presence of the defenders doesn't tend to be as significant as it is in the EPL. Leaving any smack talk aside and assuming you actually know anything about the game at all you will, (if you try and remain rational), realise there is some truth in this. Football is played slightly differently in different leagues - because a player is successful in one league doesn't mean he will be successful, or at least as successful, in another. It's as simple as that. Nesta and Cannavaro would be successful in the EPL but whether they would be considered as good as they are I'm not so sure. Cannavaro was taken off the other night against Poland. He was up against a team where the ball was being played forward to a couple of big fellas and he found it difficult to cope. You're argument to my points seems to consist of saying I don't know anything about the game - maybe the Italian manager knows nothing about the game as well. Another reason why I don't think that Italian defenders can ever truly be said to be the best in the world is because a significant element of their defensive capabilities consists of their ability to foul their opponents. Unfortunately they are rarely brought to book for it. One notable exception was when they played Korea in the WC when Panucci basically ignored the ball and just attacked Seol Ki-Hyeon who happened to be passing. I for one found the bleating, wailing and gnashing of teeth of the Italians most amusing - I don't think I was alone. I was also pleasantly surprised when the referee, who was excellent throughout the game, had the temerity to send off Totti for his dying swan impression. I, and many other true football supporters throughout the world, found the whole thing a highly satisfactory result all round.
The title of this thread is 'Best defender in the world...' Not 'England and Italies comparitive record in the WC' - he raised it... so STFU. As a matter of interest the first football match I saw was at Spurs in November 1961. Unlike you, (and your friends), luducrous posturing I actually know something about the game.
I was simply playing along with you after you made this statement: "You say that Italy won the WC 3 times - does anyone remember the first couple?" You being an older gentleman should appreciate the history of the game.
Nesta and Cannavaro are the best central defense pairing in the world. There is nothing idiotic about that. If yourself and fellow limey moron Sendorange (who said that Nesta is overrated and that Campbell and Ferdinand are better) think differently then you need help.
Rrrrriiiiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhhtttttt... great going forward, can't defend for sh!t For the record, I can't see how you can aruge NEsta beign the worlds best CB (Thuram being the best RB and probably all-round defender). However, I would call Rio & Sol better than Cannavaro - so it kind of levels itself out in the end.
Since this is the Beautiful Game and not WR I guess it's worth trying to have a football discussion. But not if you just steadfastly refuse to accept that there is any possibility that Nesta and Cannavaro are not the best in the world. FWIW I rate them both extremely highly but IMO Nesta makes a lot of mistakes. He gets away with them because his reactions are pretty good and he is usually playing alongside other good defenders. But he is a long way from perfect. Cannavaro also has his failings, neatly summed up by the analysis in Andy Bennett's post. I don't think that Rio and Sol are the best in the world - as it happens I think it's more or less impossible to pin that title on anyone, for reasons already stated by others - but they had a fairly convincing argument for being the best at the last World Cup. If that's not a good yardstick to measure them by then what is? I used to rate Jaap Stam as one the very best but his performances haven't been as consistent since his move to Italy and drugs ban. Anyway, my original insult was aimed at you mainly because you were slating sendorange for apparently displaying favouritism towards English players when it seemed as if you were doing the very same thing yourself for the Italians, just because you support a Serie A team.
..which was in response to someone else saying to me.. '.. a three time world cup winner. The world cup is a big tournament for national teams, held in a four year rhythm.' Well that proves that Italian defenders are the best doesn't it. But hang on, didn't Brazil win it 5 times... Surely by the same logic their defenders must be the best... Or maybe, just maybe, the results of a national team can't be applied to every single individual player from that country in the simplistic way you imply. For reasons that are not immediately obvious over the past few years players from South America and southern European countries have tended to play in Spain and Italy whereas players from northern Europe tend to play in northern European countries including Britain, France and Germany. The EPL has seen a rise in the number of foreign players to the extent that the EPL had the highest number of players in the last WC that played their football in another country. IIRC it was about 30-40% more than the closest rival which was either Italy or Spain. The point about this is that we do have some experience of how other players perform in our league and can make some direct comparisons but it's also worth saying that players from the EPL don't tend to go to Italy and Italian players don't tend to come here - probably for the reasons I've already outlined that neither is particularly well suited to each others style of play. Under these circumstances making definitive statements about this player being better than that player is, frankly, a bit daft. As I've already made clear I consider Nesta and Cannavaro great defenders - but I also think that Ferdinand, notwithstanding his current dip in form, is also a great defender. I say this because of his performances against people like Thierry Henry in the EPL and against the Argentine national side, for example, in the last WC where he was particularly effective. I suppose what I'm really complaining about is the type of mindless posturing that says that a player from here is better than another player from there when there's no obvious way to make a rational decision about the matter.
Nesta could be from Albania and I would still think he is the best. Of course, Italy also has a great tradition for turning out world class defenders Franco Baresi, Giuseppe Bergomi, Paolo Maldini, Alessandro Nesta, etc. As far as Italian players preferring to play domestically, this is very true. Most of it has to do with lifestyle preference and the fact that Italians will always believe that Seria A is the best league in the world.
If I had Abramovich kind of money, my defense would be Thuram as right back, Nesta and Puyol as center backs; and Roberto Carlos as left back. Thuram and Puyol can play either position. And because I have all the money in the world, I'd also get Davids as defensive mid to cover for Carlos.
All defenders have bad games at times. Ferdinand and Campbell are wildy inconsistent though. Nesta is widely considered by many to be the best defender in the world. Cannavaro is up there as well. There is nothing ludicrous or biased about saying that Nesta and Cannavaro are the best central pairing in the world. They are both world class players. Its not like I stated that Eddie Pope and Carlos Bocanegra are best in the world. That would be displaying favoritism.
It depends on who you're playing against, doesn't it. Using the team I support as an example if I were choosing defenders to play against Mutu I would choose maybe Cannavaro or Ferdinand as they are both very quick. Jaap Stam is better against another big fella but, when he played against Mutu in the recent Chelsea/Lazio game in England he was too slow and got turned for the second goal. Against a big attacker who is good in the air like, say, Crespo I would play Ferdinand, our fella John Terry or Nesta. Playing the ball up front quickly for a big attacker to hold onto and play other people in is a significant part of the English game so we're more used to it because of people like Alan Shearer. Cannavaro is about 4-5 inches shorter than Ferdinand and Terry - I don't think he'd do too well against a player like Shearer if Shearers side used the wings effectively. Obviously, though, if you are expecting Alan Shearer to try and turn and run at Cannavaro, forget it... Cannavaro would win every time. The truth is that this is a complicated issue. You can't simply say, 'Oh, I saw such and such and he was good against this player' - it's more complicated than that.
And yet English sides won the CL, (or the equivalent at that point), 7 times in 10 years between '75 and '85 when some of these players were playing. Agreed - I imagine that's true of the EPL and La Liga as well.
You have to admit though that the Milan squad with Baresi, Maldini, Van Basten, Gullit, etc. was one of the most dominating club teams in the history of football.
Well, I just thought it was an opinion. Shows how much I know. Cannavaro may be short but he can jump out of the ceiling and in most cases he will stay a few feet back from a defender in order to get a short run before he challenges for crosses and high balls, and very often he wins them. Last year he was caught out quite frequently, but ultimately it was learned that he was playing on a fractured fifth metatarsal. He isn't perfect, but he is very very good. Nesta made a lot of mistakes in the friendly game versus England last year. After that game I noticed a lot of English fans calling him overrated. In the same vein I could rail Rio Ferdinand for being raped by Ronaldo last year in the first leg of the Champions League quarterfinals. But I won't because more often than not he is impeccable. The same is true of Nesta whom in the Champions League last year I do not believe made a single mistake.
cannavaro is very good but has some bad runs of form as for chivu, pick a hole in his game juventino3... i said he was the best "all around defender", not defensive defender - nesta, for one, cannot add to the attack and take free kicks like CC as for roberto carlos, he's a defender in name only, more of a winger really - his best defensive attribute is that he often pins the opposite winger back with his own offensive forays i also don't understand lucio critics - he supports to the attack well and is very fiery, i love watching him play thuram is just money
Wow...Chelsea fans are all swinging dicks. Bennett I gotta tell ya man, as soon as I read that you "have been watching soccer since the 1960's'" I laughed my fukin head off. How convenient, a gentleman who immedietley establishes seniority in order to back his points. Honestly, I dont really care how old you are, nor do I care how vast your knowledge is, (or so you indirectly claim it be) my message to you is simply: get a life. Seriously; the very length of your posts alone suggest that you have no day-job whatsoever; also the opinions in which you so carelessly present are written in complete and utter jargon. Frankly your points are staggering to read and not to mention you neglect any attempt to sound objective. But how can I blame you? You are yet another Chelsea supporter dancing in the blue parade. Contracted to a club which is ofcourse a "team of extrordinary gentlemen"; a group of players in a league of their own entirely. A team who's involvement in football is seen and heard in a League that claims to out-perform any and every contender (or so their supporters permit?) No wonder your strolling around here swingin your dick^ . I guess my real question is how can you and other English twits live without the sun, when your heads are so far up your ass's^? But...I am an understanding person Benett. I mean how can any person living in England stand all that frustration from all those reacurring dissapointments which involve any or all of Englands national performances? It must be "desperation", desperation that plagues the minds of England supporters; thats probably why they result to signing coaches who aren't of native birth. But who cares about being patriotic right? And gosh, I cant forget to include European club competiton! I dunno how you guys deal with it. I mean a country that has only produced 2 teams to ever win the competition; both of their efforts combined only managing to win six cups; now I know where all the anger comes from. Especially when you consider the average winning rate of Italian sides against English sides, I suppose it can get so frustrating to a point where Italian club teams are so dominating that the only way to supress their victories is to literally kill their fans. Benett this thread was about defenders, and in a slimey and unsophisticated fashion you managed to harrass the pride of Italy supporters, not to mention the confidence of other neutral members of this forum who read your posts. But I guess you have no concern for integrity, how else could your messages be defined but 'a usless collaboration opinions and pros which is in itself a celebration of boobery.'
Re: Wow...Chelsea fans are all swinging dicks. Poor baby! Did mean Benett take your binkie? Regardless of the fact that good ol AndyBennett is obviously prejudiced towards English sides, the fact that he can get under so many people's skin simply points out the fact that many Italian (or italian club supporters) think they really do corner the market on defenders. How is it "harassing the pride of Italy supporters" (ha!) by doing this? Also very telling is the fact that your post does not include one single piece of evidence that disputes what he is saying. Either you don't know enough to dispute him or you are too lazy to think up an intelligent response. Personally, I haven't really seen Ferdinand come through in a big game for a while, and I wonder if he isn't overrated (seriously overrated, not just 30 milllion pounds overrated). O'Shea also has some growing up to do. Campbell is a good defender, but can lose his temper at the worst moments...not a good trait in a defender.