Best Crosser?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by johno, Sep 14, 2005.

  1. Letmepost

    Letmepost Red Card

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    Are there 23 assists for headed-goals in that video?

    All For The Center Circle on X: " Marcelinho Carioca's career statistics : ️ : 1988 - 2010 : SC Corinthians : AM ️ : 885 ⚽ : 306 ️ : 297 : 603 G/A : 0.68 G/A ⛰️1994 : 67 games, 31 goals, 41 assists (1.07 G/A) https://t.co/3PEvWm4AN7" / X

    adim2911 on X: "@defence2attack @OroRogerio Marcelinho Carioca (assists) would be very interesting. I know it's hard but I think there are about 80-90% of his assists available on video. I think he has the most FK assists of the time and probably the most from corners" / X

    If this is the rate at which he assisted headed goals from the given sample, a figure that surpasses Luis Figo (137 career assists for headed goals) seems quite possible, especially if he was a set-pieces virtuoso (given its higher ratio of assists for headed goals).
     
  2. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    If no, he actually is the best free kick taker of all times
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I have this one etched on my memory (due to an old VHS video I had as a kid) - 4:38:
    Wolves 2-3 Nottingham Forest (Division 1 - 10/9/1977)

    I suppose there will also be a few goals scored via headers from centrally positioned free-kicks, and there can be some from a volleyed return pass, a flick into the air etc etc (but overall there won't be very many of these types compared to from crosses).

    I do think it would be more informative in a way if Sofascore etc (and in effect Opta originally) split the cross assists into 'crosses from corners' and 'open play crosses' as sub-categories.

    On this sentence you included above I'm not sure tbh - I would guess taking away the set piece assists from his assists on headers might give a closer estimate of open play assists on headers than the A1+A2 calculation would (because of near-post crosses near to the ground and especially/more certainly (re: classification as cross rather than pass) far post crosses near to the ground, for volleyed/half-volleyed/tapped in finishes etc - but of course in an overall assessment of crossing those can still be relevant, especially if high quality and/or low xG to high xG kinds of crosses):
    "Although we know the assists to headed goals (137) by Luis Figo, and also his set pieces assists (86). If we take away 86 from 137, we get a weird number that isn't really representative of anything. We are just hoping A2 (open-play crosses to headed goals) takes such a massive portion that it somehow approaches A1+A2."
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Having caught up with the goals from South Korea vs Czech Republic @Letmepost I guess the classification of the winning goal assist (as cross or pass) would be a good guide as to how those kinds of low balls in front of goal are seen by the stats compilers (I'm guessing it'll be put down as a cross probably). The Czech goal came straight from a throw in so that's a reminder that those can happen too I suppose!
     
  5. Letmepost

    Letmepost Red Card

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    It was not a cross-assist according to WhoScored:

    Vladimir Coufal was credited with a throw-in assist by WhoScored.
    Lee Kang-In was credited with an open-play assist by WhoScored.
    Hwang In-Beom was credited with an open-play assist by WhoScored.

    Oh Hyeon-gyu Scores the 2nd goal against Czechia to win it for South Korea. World Cup 2026 #soccer

    But this is where it gets even weirder for me. I can accept squared passes from wide areas, not being classified as crosses by WhoScored. But what about these assist by Kevin De Bruyne?

    These are all assists which are crosses according to WhoScored:

    MANCHESTER CITY 4-3 TOTTENHAM #UCL HIGHLIGHTS - YouTube
    The 119 Assists That Crowned Kevin De Bruyne the Assist King
    The 119 Assists That Crowned Kevin De Bruyne the Assist King
    The 119 Assists That Crowned Kevin De Bruyne the Assist King

    These are all assists which are not crosses according to WhoScored:

    9 GOAL THRILLER! | Man City 7-2 Stoke City | Classic Highlights
    9 GOAL THRILLER! | Man City 7-2 Stoke City | Classic Highlights
    AGUERO SCORES 4! | Sergio demolished Leicester February 10th, 2018! | Classic Extended Highlights
    MANCHESTER CITY VS NEWCASTLE 1 - 0 | ALL GOALS & HIGHLIGHTS | 27/12/2017 | HD
    The 119 Assists That Crowned Kevin De Bruyne the Assist King

    It just gets weirder the more I look into these statistics. Maybe there is an angulation factor, but for me, it is really difficult to differentiate which crosses that have minimal aerial time gets to be considered a cross.

    Sometimes, even aerial time does not seem to guarantee that an assist gets registered as a cross, due to how it may look more like a lobbed pass. At all these factors together, I truly am at a loss how to replicate a WhoScored-standard cross tally for older players.
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I suppose I can understand why the second one vs Stoke can be a through-ball (and therefore not a cross because they can't define it as a pass and a cross) or the chipped ball to Sterling can be a lofted pass (there wasn't much angle and it was from deeper than Sterling and didn't go past the middle of the penalty area, and was aimed at Sterling and went to him like a midfield pass could in theory too) and therefore not a cross.

    But it does seem a bit uncertain yeah. If the assister is deep and wide and the ball goes around the back of the defence (or over defenders in the air of course) it seems likely to be a cross perhaps?
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I meant high and wide I suppose @Letmepost (deep can mean the opposite of course so I thought I should clarify - I had been thinking deep into the opposition half, getting towards the byline, I suppose though).

    I would be inclined to expect number 8 and number 20 on here would not be counted as crosses for example, but number 9 might be (although I'd feel a bit uncertain about that one for sure based on the De Bruyne examples):
    Luis Figo All 87 Assists Barcelona - YouTube
     
  8. Letmepost

    Letmepost Red Card

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    #58 Letmepost, Jun 12, 2026
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2026
    If the grounded-cross is aimed even slightly backwards (like the delivery for Korea's goal that you mentioned), maybe it is more of a cut-back.

    So I probably would not count number 8 assist for Barcelona from Luis Figo to be a cross. But during a quick review, I probably would pause and rewind, in order to make sure, despite not being sure of anything at all. With number 20, the problem seems to be more positional and the angulations involved, but again, this is just a hunch.

    If I had to guess for the missing variables, there may be a component of form of the body, as the delivery is taken.

    1) Maybe if you chip it, even if the trajectory of the delivery itself, might somewhat resemble a cross, maybe it does not count. Perhaps there is a certain amount of leg swing that has to take-place before the cross is registered. That might be the reason why the assist below did not count as a cross-assist.

    The 119 Assists That Crowned Kevin De Bruyne the Assist King

    2) Maybe if you square it too much, it does not become a cross. Almost every low-delivery that resembled a cross, that had the player squaring his hips, seemed to not count as a cross.

    AGUERO SCORES 4! | Sergio demolished Leicester February 10th, 2018! | Classic Extended Highlights - YouTube

    3) There also seems to be cases of assists that have the striking form and maybe ball delivery of a cross, but gets classified as a throughball or a long-ball. That might be more dependent on the pitch positions of the players, and the angulations of the ball trajectory, but I do not know where the cut-off point is. Exactly how far back does a player have to go before the assist is registered as a long-ball or a throughball, like the assists Kevin De Bruyne made versus Stoke City?

    Combine all these uncertainties, coming up with WhoScored-aligned numbers for crosses, based on a quick review of YouTube highlights for older players, becomes an impossible mission for someone like me. Counting assists for headed goals is tedious, but there is almost no need for deliberation, but trying to figure out which assists are crosses, without having any data-base to double-check, is way too annoying for me.
     
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  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #59 carlito86, Jun 12, 2026
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2026
    The best David Beckham passing compilation on YouTube IMO



    David Beckham was a GOAT tier crosser of the ball with absolutely elite passing ability along the ground. His weight of pass was almost flawless, consistently delivering the ball with pinpoint accuracy and perfect timing.


    Who was actually a better through ball specialist than David Beckham between 1995 and 2005?



    It certainly wasn’t Luis Figo, Zinedine Zidane or Rivaldo.



    And it definitely wasn’t any of his English contemporaries be it Paul Scholes, Steven Gerrard, or Frank Lampard.



    The only players who might have a legitimate case are Francesco Totti and perhaps Dennis Bergkamp, but beyond them it’s difficult to think of anyone who was clearly superior in that specific aspect of the game.


    We’ve seen this before :rolleyes:

    That a player becomes so legendary at one particular skill that it ends up masking the rest of his game. His defining attribute gets all the attention, while his other elite qualities fade into the background and become strangely underrated.
     
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  10. Letmepost

    Letmepost Red Card

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
    I am guessing the time-frame disqualifies the likes of Michael Laudrup and Cesc Fabregas.

    The question was difficult to answer for me, partly due to not knowing the precise visual markers for through-balls to check via YouTube assist compilations, which are frustratingly difficult to find for late 90s creatives.

    The matter that makes me pause, regarding the argument that David Beckham was prolific enough through-ball specialist comparable to the likes of Dennis Bergkamp, is not just the raw weight of passing, or the raw accuracy of the delivery within a vacuum setting, but whether he found himself often enough in those pockets of space to release throughballs with sufficient regularity to qualify as the best.

    Manipulating game states during open-play to make most of his awesome delivery was the issue for David Beckham, and that is what separates him from open-play assist specialists like Dennis Bergkamp. Since through-ball set-pieces really isn't a thing, I think that cuts into David Beckham's claim as the best through-ball specialist of his era.

    As for the question itself, my personal vote, might go for Guti (over David Beckham, not Dennis Bergkamp). In the Real Madrid squad that had plethora of creative specialists such as Luis Figo, David Beckham, and Zinedine Zidane simultaneously, I thought Guti was outstanding in terms of defense wrecking through-balls. Especially the kind that isn't mere exploitation of huge empty spaces behind defensive lines, but really imaginative pass timings that makes the defense look stupid.

    GUTI passes but they get increasingly more insane... - YouTube

    I am not sure if he is the actual best candidate other than the two names already mentioned (Dennis Bergkamp and Francesco Totti), because I am not quite certain if his actual volume of through-ball-assists would be sufficient within the given time-frame. I personally think he does qualify as a through-ball specialist, probably even more so given his profile of play.

    Perhaps other more well-rounded creative candidates to look into might be Juan Sebastian Veron and Rui Costa. I wouldn't mind going through their assist catalogue, to come up with a rough tally, but for now, I cannot really find one that suits the purpose of career encompassing assist tallying.
     
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Since Michel Platini has already been put forward in this thread by PDG as a candidate for all time elite crossing ability I thought I could add to that viewpoint by sharing a 20 minute compilation I put together some months ago of his playmaking.

    It features roughly 100 assists and 100 chance creation moments many of which originate from crosses.


     
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  12. Letmepost

    Letmepost Red Card

    Arsenal
    South Korea
    Apr 11, 2023
     
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  13. markcarrick

    markcarrick Member

    Jul 4, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Cruyffs crossing ability is perhaps overlooked somewhat with his outside the boot crosses providing a different dimension to the attribute.
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, for sure he had more capability than most with those. I guess weighing everything up some other players could gain something back with reliable/repeated accuracy for chipped crosses or range and danger from swung crosses etc, but he did have inside right, inside left, outside right deliveries all in his collection that he could play excellently, and his in-motion crossing could be on point too.
     
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  15. markcarrick

    markcarrick Member

    Jul 4, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    He was capable of very precise crosses with pinpoint accuracy Johan Cruyff vs Real Madrid | Perfect performance in the original "La Manita" 10:13 in this video
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
  17. El_Bicho77

    El_Bicho77 Member

    Real Madrid
    Portugal
    Jun 26, 2026
    Indonesia
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Beckham is by far the goat of crossing no one else came close to him.
     
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  18. Prime Madjer

    Prime Madjer Member

    Sep 18, 2021
    Perhaps outing myself as a late 80s/early 90s fan, but some of the best crossers I've ever seen haven't been mentioned here. Honourable mentions to fullbacks like Roberto Carlos, Jarni, Mihajlovic, and others who could do it from open play and set pieces alike. Finidi George's low crosses are also some of the most "automatic" that I've seen and a good reason why Litmanen & co. scored so much.

    But the best one not mentioned yet is, by a distance, Real Madrid's Michel. One of the most gifted crossers I've ever seen. That Madrid team was special, and all credit to Hugo and Buitre who are great aerial threats given their stature, but Michel is owed at least part of the respect these guys get for scoring so much in the air.
     
  19. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    In fact he actually were mentioned by me
    But since you're a fan of late 80s/early 90s I would love to read what you have to say about him as you had first hand experience of watching him live (I don't know what club you support).
     

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