Best Brazilian NT ever?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Kaushik, Dec 17, 2005.

  1. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    Many are suggesting that the current Brazil squad is on its way to being the best of all time. I, however, feel that there were other great Brazilian teams capable of challenging the current team (apart from 1970 of course). Below is a list of the best 5 Brazilian NTs ever assembled, imo. Vote and discuss the reasons for choosing a particular Brazilian NT as the best.

    World Cup 1958: Gilmar, D.Santos, Zito, Bellini, N.Santos, Orlando, Garrincha, Didi, Vava, Pelé, Zagalo

    World Cup 1970:
    Felix, Carlos Alberto, Piazza, Brito, Everaldo, Clodoaldo, Gerson, Jairzinho, Tostao, Pelé, Rivelino

    1981-82: Waldir Peres, Leandro, Oscar, Luizinho, Junior, Cerezo, Socrates, Falcao, Eder, Zico, Careca (or, Roberto Dinamite)

    1997/99: Taffarel, Aldair, Antonio Carlos, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Dunga, F Conceicao, Denilson (or Leonardo or Juninho Paulista), Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Romario

    2005-2006: Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Juan, Roberto Carlos, Emerson, Ze Roberto (or Juninho Pernambucano), Kaka, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Adriano

    PS: In order to get a wider perspective, this thread has not been posted in the Brazil forum.
     
  2. leonidas

    leonidas Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I actually wouldve liked to have seen the 2002 squad on the list. I definitely think its better than the 97/99 team. I mean, the 06 team has 5 of the same players from the 02 team...and Dida was good anyways, even if he was on the bench then. Kaka wasnt a factor in 02, so I'll ignore him. If you look statistically, that team is amazing. Best record ever in a World Cup. Only 4 goals conceded. And two of the top goal-scorers.

    But I do think that ultimately, the current team has the potential to be considered the greatest of all time. Yes. All time. Surpassing the 1970 team...and if Pele had a grave to roll over in, he would do it. But instead, he will likely complain and say that Brazil needs to be careful and all the crap. I never listen to him anyways. Brazil's current level of talent is rediculous. We havent seen this amount of talent concentration in ages. People still consider the 82 team to be one of the best, even if they didnt win. And I think should Brazil lose despite their amazing team, they should definitely merit the same historical consideration that the 82 team garnered.

    This right here is a team that is peaking at the right time, because after the World Cup, Cafu and Roberto Carlos are done. We already have replacements for Cafu (Cicinho and Rafinha)...now we just need to find another Roberto Carlos. Either way, this team will still be very good in 2010. We still have a good goalie in Julio Cesar. Adriano and Robinho arent going away up front. And then there's Ronaldinho and Kaka who are still young. Tons of talent still in Brazil. Sometimes I think it isnt fair. hah.
     
  3. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I'll pick the 1970 side on the basis that most people rate the as the greatest side to have won the World Cup, with the 1958 side close to them. Not only did Brazil have Pele in '58 but there was also Vava, Garrincha, Didi and the two Santoses. They also scored 10 goals in their final two matches.

    Brazil's 1982 side may have been known to have played some of the most spectacular football ever and did have a fantastic midfield but I feel that they weren't the complete team. Waldir Peres was a crap goalie, the defence was one of the worst ever and they lacked an out-and-out striker. The Selecao sure would have liked Careca to have been fit. Aside from bias, I felt that Italy deserved to win in 1982 because they were more complete as a side. The Azzurri midfield wasn't of the standard of Brazil's but a very good one nevertheless though in every other department, the Azzurri were superior.

    Brazil's side in 1994 to me was the most complete Brazilian side. They seemed to have strong points in every department on the pitch. Taffarel wasn't the best goalie ever but he was a decent keeper compared to some of the other goalies Brazil produced at that time.

    The 1950 side is one of Brazil's most underrated. That was a great side with the likes of Chico, Zizinho and Ademir but after the final against Uruguay, the impact that side has on the history of the game isn't as great as it could have been.
     
  4. dante7

    dante7 New Member

    Nov 4, 2005
    bournemouth
     
  5. Green Tabasco

    Green Tabasco New Member

    May 3, 2003
    The 82 Squad was a thing of pure magic. Too bad about them. Arguably the best NT of the entire 80`s.

    The current Brazilian NT is technically better though. But I´d bench Fatnaldo in favor of Adriano.
     
  6. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    Both would probably be playing and Robinho would start on the bench.
     
  7. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    Yes, 1994 Brazil had no weak points. Taffarel would fit in many teams. He was no Zoff, but he could make some amazing saves and he never screwed up in any one of the three WCs he participated in. 1994 Brazil had an amazing defence and midfield. 1994 along with 2002 Brazil would be the hardest teams to beat. However, I did not list 1994 Brazil in top 5 because the team was totally dependent on Romario's magic to win. If there was no Romario in that team, they would not have won the WC. Thus, because of excessive reliance on one person to win matches I did not put them in top 5.

    2002 Brazil was also solid defensively, with three central defenders + 2 wingbacks! The team had a great attack as well. However, they had two newcomers in midfield, Kleberson and Gilberto Silva. Although both played very well, I am not sure how they would fare against some of the great teams from the yesteryears.
     
  8. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    I agree. 1958 Brazil had the best individuals, no doubt. Didi, Djalma Santos, Nilton Santos, Garrincha, Vava, Pele...all great players. That defence (in terms of individuals) was better than 1970s defence, especially in the GK position. There can be no comparison between Gilmar and Felix. However, 1970 Brazil was a team. It was THE team, imo. You see everyone sacrificing for the sake of the team. Everyone coming down to the defence to win the ball back and build the attack. Pele and the others totally shed their excessive showiness and committed themselves selflessly to the team's cause. Teamwork doesn't get any better than that. Mix that with exquisite technique and individual brilliance, and you have what most people describe as the greatest team ever.

    The current Brazil team has incredible skill and talent. There is only one weak position, a decent CB to play beside Lucio (also lack of a reserve for Roberto Carlos). However, if the other players can play at their best, it would be difficult to keep the team at bay. However, to be considered better than WC 1970, teamwork would have to be crucial. Based on the evidence from the Confed Cup one can say that teamwork would be of no major concern. In that case, I expect the current Brazil side to put on a real show and seriously threaten Brazil 1970 as the title holder for the greatest team ever.
     
  9. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    Do you see any weakness in the 1997/99 team? It was great in every department. Great CBs, DMs, Cafu and RC at their peaks, brilliant attacking MFs, and probably the most devastating striking duo the world has ever seen! All the other Brazil sides (including the current side) have had at least one weakness (mostly either the goalie or the CBs). Not Brazil 1997. The only reason people do not consider it to be the best is because the side did not win the WC. If the 1997 side played at the 1998 WC, they would have taken everyone to the cleaners. Too bad, so many stars got injured and had to miss the 1998 WC. Otherwise, that side was on its way to the pinnacle of world football. That team was great to watch as well, flair in abundance (ditto current Brazil squad).
     
  10. leonidas

    leonidas Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    they didnt win the world cup. all they won was Copa America 99. The team was very good. They also had Amoroso, who was one of the top scorers, I believe. The 97 team, which also won the Copa America, wasnt as good as the 99 team. I never liked either Djalminha or Edmundo. The problem with Brazil 98 was their lack of depth. As great as Emerson was, you can't replace Romario. If had him alongside Ronaldo, things would have been different.

    Either way, these are all solid teams. I just I have been more impressed with the accomplishments of the 02 one over the 94, 97, and 99 teams.
     
  11. ChaChaFut

    ChaChaFut Member

    Jun 30, 2005
    My vote goes to the 1970 WC squad. Although I agree that the 1958 team was almost just as good, but the truth is that the "Scratch du Ouro" from 1970 was a compendium of individual skill, excellent collective play, and desire to win. Superb. It was perfectly balanced, except for the GK, but the lack of a good one is what made the team so good. This team, specially under Zagallo, proved that attacking play is the best defense.
     
  12. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    That is a good point imo. In addition to the humiliation of going out from the group stages in spite of having the best team, the realization that the CBs and the goalie Felix were vulnerable provided the other players with the impetus to shed their flashiness and toil for the team's cause. The way Carlos Alberto fouled the English player (forgot his name) after his miskick landed on Felix's face, showed how united and motivated that 1970 team was. He was a good leader.
     
  13. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I thought Romario was omitted from the 1998 team because of team chemistry. While the team missed him badly in the WC Finals, I wondered whether he would have hurt the team if he went to France. I came into this conclusion based upon your good post on the 1970 team and Felix.
     
  14. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    I hate this site, but it had an article that includes some Pele comments in relation to the previous Brazilian NTs and comparing them. Here are the two most important paragraphs:

    'To compare with 1970 is a little complicated because before 1970 some newspapers used to compare the team from 1958, which was special, with the team from 1970. My point of view is that in 1958 we had more individual players than in 1970 - Didi, Zagalo, Santos, Garrincha...'

    '[Carlos Alberto] Parreira doesn't have one year to practise with the players. They have good players who play for different teams. Individually they are very good, no doubt - two great players in each position. But maybe as a team it is complicated. It is difficult to compare with 1970. They were more unified - Tostao, Jarzinho, Gerson, Rivelino...'


    (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=350000&cc=5739)

    His view is basically that modern sides will struggle to have the same collective team ability and sense of togetherness. This is down to the change in modern football in terms of player commitments, etc. He links this back and compares it to the level of preparation and time that the 1970 squad had in order develop as a team prior to the World Cup. It's clearly not the same and there are other factors involved (like dodgy officials) but the same could be said of the Korea Republic from WC2002, due to the level of preparation that they had prior to their great displays. So the question is how relevant should this factor be when comparing NT's from different time periods?
     
  15. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    They also had Bebeto but by the sound of things, the impact he had wasn't close to Romario's influence on the team. Having said that though, I reckon Bebeto's impact was more crucial in victory than what some of his other teammates did.
     
  16. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    Bebeto was a great player. However, he was more like Robinho, a player who worked hard, ran a lot, attacked from both wings, dribbled very effectively, passed well and also scored (he was better than Robinho in scoring). But he would never score a goal such as the one Romario produced against Sweden (group play)...a goal out of nothing. Romario's intervention was necessary to decide a match out of the blue.
     
  17. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    Romario was injured. Otherwise he would not have been replaced by Emerson! He could only (possibly) recover by the time Brazil played in the Q/F of the World Cup. Thus, it would have been a gamble for Zagalo to take an injured player to the WC.

    Romario became a great team player after his two-year break from the Brazilian NT following the 1994 WC triumph. He played as a no. 10 and was praised by the Brazilian media in his first game back from his hiatus...iirc, he received a score of 10/10 in the player ratings from Brazilian critics :eek:, next highest being 7/10. He got along with Bebeto very well in WC 1994 (he said, "Bebeto is like my brother"). The 1994 WC team had great team spirit and unity. Romario also displayed selflessness during his lethal combination with Ronaldo and Rivaldo. He usually left his club-level whims and fancies behind when he played for the Brazilian NT in important tournaments.
     
  18. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I thought Romario's injury was very minor. He actually would be able to play against Scotland. Zagallo dropped him for another reason. The injury was an excuse.

    Anyway, Romario was shut out of the 2002 team because Rivaldo, Roberto carlos and Ronaldo did not want him in the locker room.
     
  19. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    I knew that Romario was omitted from the WC 2002 squad because Scolari did not feel that he could perform well at the World Cup stage at the age of 36! Romario was the top scorer in the Brazilian league and even Brazil's Prez asked him to be included in the team. But Scolari did not care. He ignored the president, the media and the Brazilian people. He sure knew what he was doing. I don't think he would care for the opinions of other players while choosing his team.

    Apart from Romario's age, Scolari also promised Luizao a place in the WC squad if he managed to score the goals in the WCQ that Brazil needed to advance. When Luizao complied, he had to be taken to the World Cup by Scolari, who is not a person to go back on his word.
     
  20. Saugatak

    Saugatak New Member

    Dec 15, 2005
    Southern California
    You know, you Brazilians are so damned lucky that you can say things like shall we drop Romario. :mad:

    Everyone else is saying, do we even have a Romario? :rolleyes:
     
  21. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    What was that reason?

    I doubt that Romario was dropped from the team for anything other than the injury. Zagalo paired Romario with Ronaldo all through 1997 and early 1998. They were devastating together, most critics calling them the most fearsome striking duo ever! Just when everyone was relishing the chance to watch them at the WC, Zagalo would drop Romario for a reason other than injury, that too 10 days before the WC for Emerson? Also, if there was another reason that the players knew about, Ronaldo during the tournament would never have said that he missed Romario, without ensuing controversy.
     
  22. Kaushik

    Kaushik Member

    Jun 6, 2004
    Toronto
    Everyone else is saying, have we ever had a Romario? ;) :p
     
  23. Simo™

    Simo™ New Member

    Oct 30, 2005
    London, UK
    WC 1970 team for me
     
  24. Saugatak

    Saugatak New Member

    Dec 15, 2005
    Southern California
    yeah yeah rub it in.
     
  25. Bertje

    Bertje New Member

    Nov 10, 2004
    Leiden
    We prefer our Cruijff's and van Basten's. ;)

    Holland, the country that comes the closest to Brazil in producing talented forwards! And that with only 16 million people in our country.
     

Share This Page