Alright, to keep the fires burning during the winter break, provide your choices for the three best and three worst 1.BL and 2.BL team logos. Best 1.BL: 1. Gladbach (I'm biased, but it's kind of like a black and white movie; nostalgic, elegant and classy). 2. TSV 1860 (see above, but substitute traditional for elegant; plus, I love the number below the lion). 3. Bayern Munich (just something about the symmetry of it all--the diamond checkerboard inside the circle logo, with the team name outside). Worst 1.BL: 1. Energie Cottbus (a refugee from the DDR school of art and design; overblown self-importance). 2. Kaiserslautern (just looks like a jumble of numbers and letters). 3. Wolfsburg (I liked the old one, but the new one is the definition of non-descript).
Best 2.BL: 1. St. Pauli (It's like Bayern's except it has a cool building on it instead of the geometric design). 2. Eintracht Frankfurt (uber-German). 3. Cologne (a good modern logo with stark colors, the name of the team fully spelled out, and a tie to the city; OK with or without the goat, but better without). Worst 2.BL: 1. Union Berlin (ugly script devoid of any character). 2. LR Ahlen (reminds me of about a billion logos used by US rec leagues; utterly generic use of script and soccer ball). 3. Greuther Fuerth (a poor combo of Vestenbergsgreuth and Fuerth's logos; plus, what is a four-leaf clover doing as a logo for a German team).
Bayern München ? Good logo ? Holy thaistick, batman, what have you been smoking ? It's about as tasteful or memorable as an Oktoberfest tourist trap... In my not-so-humble opinion HSV have the classiest logo by some distance, a strict and universally unique geometric composition from the late teen years of the last century, commonly known as "Die Raute" (even though technically it's not, but I digress). In fact, it's so damn classy, that I can use a halfway decent approximation of it in my forum info on the left of this post. That, folks, is good graphic design (the logo, not my use of it)! So there you have it...
Werder had a great Christmas logo on their jerseys last weekend - their logo was somehow formed to be a Christmas tree. Unfortunately I didn't find a pic. Top Bundesliga: 1 1860 2 Leverkusen 3 Berlin Worst Bundesliga: Many should belong to this category... 1 Kaiserslautern 2 Dortmund 3 Hamburg Best BL2: Much better choice than in Bundesliga 1 Freiburg 2 Frankfurt 3 Braunschweig Worst BL2: 1 Ahlen 2 Fürth 3 Union
Hadj: I like HSV's, but it loses points because it has no overt tie to the name of the team or soccer or, as far as I know, the city of Hamburg. To me, it looks like a flag that would fly from a commercial ship warning of bad weather, not the logo for a soccer team. Olaf: I like Hertha's, too, along with Rostock, but they didn't crack my top 3 (maybe those are 4 and 5). Not a fan of Leverkusen's; too much going on. Brunswick almost made by top 3 in 2.BL, but I'm not a fan of the colors (the blue is too light and the yellow is too yellow). Would have liked to have seen the Werder Christmas logo. They were the ones last year with the anti-terrorism message on their jerseys last season.
Here's Paul Stalteri with Werder's Christmas logo: http://www.werder-online.de/bilder/galerie/2002gross/trikotweihnachtsbaum200.JPG Your critism: Hamburg is too dull. It could be better if they worked a little bit with it, but the way it is right now it smells like 60s or 70s. Rostock is okay, it would be better with a frame around and a smaller ship inside. You'll be surprised, but I really like Leverkusen's - the old one was horrible, but now with the lions holding the Bayer sign looks elegant, classic and modern together I think.
Er, well... As you may or may not know Hamburg is one of the world's major port cities, so *that*, my friend, is exactly the point. It was designed in the spirit of nautical signal flags and as such represents a very clear connection to the spirit of the city for all those - such as myself - that grew up there.The mere fact that you, who are not from Hamburg I take it, are able to associate the style of the design with its nautical origins decades later on is further proof of the success of this logo. So you may as well add the points you deducted for apparent lack of overt ties right back on and a few more for originality, while you're at it!
Fiddlesticks, Olaf. You may know your football, but it seems that, sadly, you are as blind as a mole and devoid of stylistic instincts. What should HSV do to "work with" the logo ? Perhaps add a few decorative lions, like Leverkusen ? Or give it a 3-d neonized look like Wolfsburg ? Can't you see behind all that ? Do you think it's a coincidence that these 2 clubs are at the forefront of the Great Rebranding movement ? HSV are an old and respected football club that won championships as far back as 80 years ago and was already well established amongst the elite of German (and briefly even European) football when Leverkusen were still sporting the Bayer cross as their idea of branding in the lower divisions. Week in, week out, 40000+ people testify to the continued attraction of the brand HSV, despite - let's face it - a truly remarkable lack of success not to mention titanic displays of administrative incompetence in the last 20 years. That, folks, is what being a football fan is all about: Sticking with your team, no matter what happens. Of course, some clubs have no history at all, just a sack full of money and therefore are in dire need of a Disneyland beef-up treatment with a few cutesy cuddly lions on the side in order to appear "classy" and to infer a history and long-standing affection, when in fact they reek of plastic (not to mention aspirin) to those that can recall memories from further back than 1990 and struggle to attract more than 20000 supporters. In any case, as I stated in my last post, its style is nautical, not Sesame Street, the 1560s more than the 1960s.... Nuff said. ;-)
Hamburg a nautical city? You're kidding, right. I always thought it was a suburb of Munich, just to the south of Unterhaching. Not a sea in sight. But good beer. Isn't Lowenbrau brewed there; no, wait a minute, it's Paulaner, I'm sure. And I love those lederhosen thingies and those funny hats. And the weird dialect. It's just so, well quaint, Hamburg is. Here's the difference between HSV's logo and St. Pauli's logo in my evaluation (and thanks to revelation for his explanation as to its origin). Both tie into the city of Hamburg, but St. Pauli does it more overtly (the city flag as opposed to a vague and wholly generic reference to HSV's nautical roots, the latter of which us self-absorbed and geographically challenged Americans are unlikely to fathom), and then adds a few trappings to make it crystal clear we're talking about a soccer club and not a shipping line or a weather report. Hadj, I'll make a bet that if you were a US football fan, you'd love the Cleveland Browns' logo.
Hadj Ullelah: my fault, I didn't know that Hamburg had all the success and gets the attendance because of the beauty of the logo...
Ok, never mind the aggravation, I had no intention of insulting your geographical nous, so let's forget that. I merely didn't want to *assume* that you knew, in case you didn't. But you do. Cool. Yes, it is true: St.Pauli's use of Hamburg's colors and arms in their logo is more overt than HSV, although the logo is itself only half the story, because HSV play in the white/red colors of Hamburg (unlike Pauli, who play in admittedly cool brown/white combo) and restrict the use of their club colors to the socks, so their is no doubting their patriotic righteousness. This was done, because - like most football clubs out there - HSV are the result of a merger between several smaller clubs in 1919 or thereabouts, and (predictably) nobody could agree, whose colors should predominate. Thus, the logo was taken from a common language bond between all 3 component clubs (the nautical thang, baby) and 'twas decreed that HSV would henceforth adopt the colors of the city for shirt and shorts. So much for the history, at the end of the day we are "arguing" about taste, which is ill-advised at best (but fun). As for your point about Pauli adding a few trappings to make sure everybody gets that this is a football club's crest, well, ok, if that's what turns you on, fine. Personally, I think it's a greater achievement to turn an abstract "shape" into a well-known logo for a football club, which was well illustrated in 1983, when HSV's logo was spraypainted onto the walls of Turin, Rome and Milan by Torino, Roma, Lazio, Inter and Milan fans along with "Grazie Hamburgo" in order to celebrate the fact that Juve lost to HSV in the Champion's Cup final. I challenge you to show me another example of how a cool and graphic logo can help international adoption of a club. Dunno. What does it look like ? Is it "nautical" or at least naughty ?
Hadj, you are very right and this is purely a matter of taste. I know that HSV's logo is very memorable - I see it way too often! Of course, that's also because they remain in the Bundesliga (and therefore are shown infrequently on Fox Sports World here in the States) and St. Pauli is trying hard to drop into the Regionalliga... Also a minor clarification, St. Pauli's logo comes from the St. Pauli City Quarter flag, which is itself taken from the Hamburg City flag (IIRC).
Don't worry, no offense taken Ok, so the 40000 don't exactly show up to get a close-up view of the club logo, that much is true. But tell me, why do you think these people, surely one of the largest assemblies of masochists around, show up every fortnight ? I'll tell you why: Because they *love* their football club like fans do everywhere and their love is not primarily dependent on immediate success on the pitch. They go there like they have always gone there (and often their fathers before them) and going elsewhere is simply not an option. That's what's known as a "Traditionsverein", as you know there are quite a few of them in Germany and that is a fundamentally different modus operandi to clubs like, say, Bayern or Leverkusen, the differences between these two notwithstanding. Now, to bring it back to the logo: A club's logo, whatever it may be, is obviously part of its history together with all past disasters and achievements and therefore deserves the same degree of respect. Only those without a history (or with one to forget) are free to choose to meddle with it in order to manipulate the "market perception" of the brand, the obvious examples being Wolfsburg and Bayer. Given that history is all that HSV have left at this stage, you can probably understand why I think your idea to "work with" the logo is off the mark by quite some distance. Another example: It's not as if HSV hasn't tried to f*** with its past, after all we play in the AOL Arena and not the Volksparkstadion (although I've yet to hear anyone who loves the club use any other name for it) in order to secure a substantial amount of money to re-finance the stadium, but, like any deal with the devil, it involved some degree of soul-selling and didn't go down well with many followers. On the other hand, that's the way the market is flowing at the moment, so HSV can't afford *not* to do it, especially if they ever want to progress beyond mediocrity again. ps. cool thread, heated discussions
ok, i'll check back later with more, but definitely 1860 as the best (anyone surprised i picked them ) not sure about st pauli's logo but they had the best sponsor though a few years back , with good ol' mr. jack daniels on the front. oh, and due to my laziness, are there any links that have all the team logos on them so i don't have to search for the ones i don't know?
What you say about Hamburg is not quite true. They had close to 40.000 average in their prime in the early 80s, soon afterwards it dropped to about 20.000. They got the boost with the new stadium, that's the simple and plain reason. Great stadium cares for big event, which makes the people attend games - that's sports today. In the first year with the new stadium Hamburg had a new attendance record despite playing rather bad. That's also not true. Besides that most clubs are already founded in the 19th or the early 20th century, but only didn't have success in the early days, there are traditional teams that changed their logos in the recent years - Hertha, Frankfurt, Duisburg, Braunschweig - and all improved a lot. And in Bundesliga there are about ten logos that would require urgent improvement. I've really never seen any non-Hamburg fan who considered their logo to be nice. Think about it as you want to, but without AOL they'd still play in front of 25.000 in a rusty old stadium without any comfort. The attendance is absolutely speaking for the way the club managed it.
? I wouldn't say that the curent logo is bad, but compared with the logos the club has used in the past, it's the worst of them. For example they took away all the Lion's details. Now it looks way to modern IMO. Oh, and when i talk about the club's past logos, i don't talk about the one used in the 70s. WORST LOGO OF A BUNDESLIGA CLUB EVER. Best current Bundesliga logo: Hertha BSC.
I have to correct my worst Bundesliga logo ever statement. We have a new champion in this competition.
That's the Christmas logo for one game - as such it is a great idea IMO. As permanent logo this would be a bad joke of course.
Yes, of course i know that. But IMO it's simply the worst logo ever. A logo in the shape of a christmas tree...
I don't see your problem. It's an excellent idea given the green/white Werder logo in a similar shape. Also that's a once and never again logo, so I wouldn't even consider it for a ranking as they remain with their old and ugly one.
Best Bundesliga: 1. Bayer 2. 1860 3. Hertha Worst Bundesliga: 1. Cottbus 2. Wolfsburgh 3. Dortmund Best 2nd: 1. Alemannia 2. St. Pauli 3. Braunschweig Worst 2nd (lots to choose from): 1. Freiburg 2. Karlsruhe 3. Union 4. Mainz 5. Frankfurt For fun Regional Ligas worst: Siegen Stuttgart kickers Essen I may be a bit impartial.
TSV 1860 seems to be a favorite of many. Bayer gets mixed reviews. I like Aachen's logo; just missed top 3. And as for 2.BL worst, agreed except as to Frankfurt. RL North Best: Verl Kiel Muenster RL North Worst: Uerdingen Aue Paderborn (although, to be fair, I don't think Aue and Paderborn are all that bad). RL South Best: Neunkirchen Wehen Offenbach RL South Worst: Schweinfurt Augsburg Siegen Bhoys: take a look at kicker.de, go to the table, and then click on each team; their logos will come up immediately. Hadj and revelation: it is entirely a matter of taste, so no hard feelings; I like HSV's logo because of its simplicity; just not enough to put it near the top. I would "improve" the logo simply by adding, underneath the "Raute," the script, "Hamburger SV." That would move it up a notch in my estimation. And FWIW, I like the Christmas Tree logo.
Looks very good to me to a big extent. Just: what's disturbing you on Freiburg and Frankfurt? I mean, I don't like the teams, but their logos are good IMO. Aachen makes my midfield of the ranking and Pauli would be better if it wasn't brown. wolfsburgh: Shame on you!!! Verl is our local rival - they simply have nothing positive To start the counter attack - this of course is the ultimate logo, hopefully in Regionalliga next year: http://www.fcg2000.de/images/gifs/fcg2kb.gif Regionalliga top? Bayer Amateure Seriously: 1 Münster 2 Saarbrücken (also new btw) 3 Babelsberg 4 Dresdner SC 5 Neunkirchen Regionalliga worst? Many: Aue, Osnabrück, Uerdingen, Siegen, Essen, Kiel, Wehen, Stuttgart, Offenbach, Elversberg, Aalen, Erfurt, Regensburg, Unterhaching (no particular order)