Best 11 Right Now

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by LuckofLichaj, Oct 19, 2018.

  1. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    I fully support your premise! Despite your doubt, I bet Berhalter will move a lot more in this direction of valuing "upside" over the next 12 months. Most of them are simply not ready, but that will change fast.

    To the "kids who are closest," I would add:

    Sands
    Reyna
    Hernandez-Foster
    Araujo

    I would also add Parks to the "guys I like, haven't seen enough of."
     
  2. CU soccer

    CU soccer Member

    Mar 28, 2005
    Panama City Beach
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ———-Sargent——
    ——Pulisic————
    Boyd————Gooch
    ———Saief————
    ————Adams——
    Ream—JB-Zim—Lichaj
    ———Horvath——-

    Subs:
    Pomykal
    Weah
    Nova
    Lletget
    McKennie
    Long
    Miazga
    Cannon
    Ramirez
    Arriolla
    Steffen
    Tyler Miller
     
  3. Eighteen Alpha

    Eighteen Alpha Member+

    Aug 17, 2016
    Club:
    Stoke City FC
    Thank you for the post. Many think the way you do, if not in full agreement with your specific choices.
    For my part, I might be the only one on these boards who has never been impressed with Yedlin. EPL or not, I think we have more interesting options right now at RB. I also think you might even be too conservative with the alternate lists, although I like your methodology. I could see guys like Gloster, EPB, and Richards being ready sooner than you implied. Finally, if you are willing to take some of those floor players, why not give another look at the FJs, Camerons, Morales’ and Chandlers. I understand that they are not the future, but neither is Roldan.
     
  4. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member+

    Aug 1, 2014
    Disagree on Yedlin, mostly because he is one of the fastest players in world soccer, which can be a game changer. But agree on the rest. Some of those guys, like FJ, Chandler, Morales, need to be looked at to make sure of qualification.
     
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  5. Marius Tresor

    Marius Tresor Member+

    Aug 1, 2014
    If Altidore can back in shape, he can be a starter going forward. Bradley is done.
     
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  6. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yeah, we are all going to have our personal preferences in terms of players even within very strict guidelines. ive been a big supporter of yedlin forever, even while recognizing his play for the nats has been pretty steadily under the level of his play for newcastle. and while im open to someone beating him out, i dont think anyones been all that close.

    cannon has developed defensively more than i expected, if he can find a higher level hes definitely the closest comp ive seen. and dest has raw talent (and probably more skill on the ball than most sr players right now) that stands out. but i dont see the case for lima or anyone below over yedlin at all.

    i think epb can play now, for sure, i just have him @5th or 6th or my personal depth chart. i also wonder about his physicality- thats why id take zimmerman over him right now. concacaf is a slog, man.

    i disagree on chandler, johnson and definitely cameron though. im not interested in spending much time (re)integrating any players who will be in their 30s in 2022. of those- and off the top of my head others i left out- chandler has the best case (as a lb for sure), but im one of those who have always seen him as less than committed. thats 100% personal preference on my part.

    morales would fit my squad age-wise, but as ive been arguing (well, mostly argued at) for a couple of weeks now i just dont see him as a difference maker. and the difference between him and chandler is that we have 3 guys who are clearly ahead of him (for me)- i dont see him as first team player in any scenario. the only argument i have against chandler as a guy who should probably be starting at left back for us is preferring a natural left back, age and not personally liking him.

    but back to morales- unfortunately having no real influence on what we are going to do also means im not as thorough in my evaluation of the pool. the bulk of my take on him is from the brief run he had under klinsmann when he didnt stand out to me at all.

    im not against him being in the team, he just doesnt blow my skirt up (hence not being in my squad). its completely valid that hes almost certainly a better choice than roldan, but best case roldan wouldnt be in the team either. just a matter of familiarity for me, i think.
     
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  7. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    sands and araujo are good shouts, just not in positions of immediate need. i certainly didnt keep my post short, but i did try to refrain from going four or five deep at every position :D

    im not sure what to make of parks just yet, either. i need to to catch a few games now that hes finally playing a bit.
     
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  8. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #808 rgli13, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
    i LOVE altidore. love him. but we need, pretty badly, for other options to prevent him going much further forward.

    i think as he bulked up and became more of a cf he lost a lot of what made him special for us. lost is probably too strong- a lot of his physical gifts were diminished. his pace and mobility are closer to poor than a strength, and his history of injuries has played in a big part in that as well.

    the flipside to that is what makes him clearly the best option for us right now. his hold up play is fantasic, and while i wouldnt say hes a plus combo player his distribution is very good. and he can still show glimpses of his finishing.

    the biggest factor is the way we play- thats what we need. we need exactly what he gives us. id probably pick zardes over him for like, an elementary school field day (remember those, all kinds of sack-races and jumping over stuff and whatnot?), but as a forward who can hold up play, get out other attackers involved? zardes is simply not equipped for that. he is incapable of what we need in that spot. hes not even above other options as a pure striker.

    our offense/scoring is going to come from pulisic, weah, the wings and cms coming through (and fingers crossed a forward who can score himself more jozy is capable of at this point). a player who can not only hold up play, but get into positions to be an option for finishing- which isnt something jozys been able to do for a while.

    i just dont see his body holding up. not in the whiny ass "jozy gets hurt every tourney" (jerk-off emoji here) way, just...i hope we arent still talking about him as the best option a year from now.

    this is an area where people talking about "yeah, but what about against top teams?" is kinda meaningless to me. unless we play in copa in two years from now there are no top teams. theres mexico and everyone else. what the hell does "sargent isnt ready for an argentina" even matter right now?

    i want to see as much of sargent, nova, maybe even morris in that spot as possible. immediately. zardes is both not the answer and not clearly better than any of them in any aspect of the game. sarge is obviously the great hope, nova (and morris) seem to be the solid options, just without huge upside. i dont think we have to rush to soto just yet...but my point is we know one thing for certain- zardes isnt good enough. hes not consistently good enough to do it at even a sub-mexico level. maybe nova and morris wont be either, but they havent proved it beyond any doubt yet.

    granted, neither morris nor nova have shown much of a hold up game- but sarge has. sargent is better in that spot than zardes now. hes very good holding up play, very good combo play with other attackers- he would fit an offense with pulisic, weah, other wingers, perfectly.

    is he better/more effective than jozy today? no, almost certainly not. but he can bring those qualities that make jozy necessary right now, while having more of an all around game? more pace, more mobility, better one touch play, cover infinitely more ground- not to mention being a better finisher than most other options already? i think so.

    so for the next two years with the only possible meaningful games at a remotely "high" level being mexio in qualifiers/possibly the second round of nations league (which would be next fall, i believe) its time to make that move. we dont need the "training wheels", if you will, jozy is for us. any matches zardes continues to get will be a waste of time. we know exactly what he is when it comes time for qualifiers. its time for sargent, sprinkle in morris and nova so when the time comes we arent having to hear horseshit excuses about gyasi having more "experience", having to hope jozy can go two games in five days...

    sorry to go off. like i said i love jozy- but with his current limitations (which i dont think are things he can simply "get in shape" and remedy) hes not a player to build around, hes a player to move on from, asap.
     
  9. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How do we know that he isn't in shape? I bet he plays 90 after 90 for TFC this season.
     
  10. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Have we ever seen Roldan play his best club position for the USMNT?
    I understand that at times we have to use guys outside of their normal position but I don't see why he hasn't had a go at DM. Seattle shipped out Alonso to give him the gig. Seems like it may be worth a look.
     
  11. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I don't find it indulgent at all.

    In principle, I more or less agree with your post. The pool is not very good, the kids are hopefully going to be better and if Berhalter had chosen to go completely young, I would have understood and been fine with any losses that doing so caused. It's a big reason why I don't care that players like Fabian, Morales or Chandler haven't been called in -- that whole crew isn't going to be there in 2022. So it doesn't matter.

    That said, I do have some questions and comments about your post:

    • I'm struggling with why people are so upset over a loss to Mexico where our xG were higher, where Mexico should have had 2 red cards, and where it certainly seems that if Tyler Adams were healthy, there's a good chance we're clearly the better team. Why was *this* the last straw?
    • I'm all good going young, but why then are players like Mihailovic and Lewis completely written off? I don't think either is ready for international play yet and both might never be, but I'm struggling as to why the U20 crew is being made way for but Mihailovic -- who was months away from being on that team -- is someone to write off completely.
    • Is there no need to veteran leadership with a team of youngsters? Normally I'm on the other side of this discussion - I think veteran leadership overrated. But to play devil's advocate here, every coach in every sport in the world seems to disagree with me. Forget that no one likes who Berhalter has chosen for that role -- are 2-3 players who won't be there in 2022 okay or even necessary?
    • We shouldn't be determining who plays based on league. MLS is not as good as the big 4/5 of Europe and we should take that into account. But I think it is weird when people put hard lines on league -- if we have a staff that can't evaluate a player regardless of league, we have a bigger problem.
    • I think the fears over Bradley, Omar and so on being on the team forever are overblown. They won't be there in 2022, and I'd bet none of them plays a qualifying match, either. If we're building for 2022, why is there so little patience? Why is losing to Mexico in a 2019 GC Final by a goal when we had the better chances so important?

    Players like Adams have already seized their spots. We need players like Pomykal, Weah and Sargent to now seize theirs. We need other players to rise up and give us depth.

    Lack of depth is the most underrated killer here. Gyazi Zardes isn't the real #2 striker for this team, but no one, except MAYBE Sargent, was going to give us anything near Jozy. We simply need more good options. And that's only going to come from youth.
     
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  12. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    US struggled against Curacao, before losing to the Mexico B team. Those were the only two opponents that had at least MLS-level talent.

    Berhalter got out-coached in the 2nd half of the final.

    Berhalter's system, which resulted in a number of weak player selections, got exposed.

    The veterans have an extensive record of failure.
     
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  13. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Jamaica doesn't count anymore, because we beat them handily. The moving target is amazing.

    Also, while Mexico was missing more than the US, this was not our full team, either, and I'm only referring to players missing due to injury. Before the GC, quite a few people listed Tyler Adams as the US' best player. Our best CB. Most people's #1 FB. All missing.

    And we only got about 120 minutes out of Jozy.

    And he that means he outcoached Martino in the first half, no? That half counts, right? And the net xG and better chances for the game as a whole went to the US. And when Jozy played, we were the better team against everyone.

    I didn't love Berhalter's roster, though I think about half the choices people hate are largely due to injury.

    I don't know how his non-personnel tactical choices got so exposed, given that we lost in the final by one goal in a game in which we, again, had more expected goals and more chances.

    What were people expecting? To roll Mexico 4-0? If Jozy and Pulisic finish their easy chances, is it vindication of the tactics? Is that all people are relying on?

    Okay? Yes, Bradley, Altidore, Ream, Gonzalez, Arriola and I'd bet a few more were part of the team that failed to qualify.

    So was Christian Pulisic, by the way. And Yedlin and Brooks contributed as well.

    Bradley and Altidore have also had success in the US shirt.

    There's no miasma of failure around these guys. It isn't contagious. I think (and have thought) it's time to move on from Bradley (but not Jozy) but let's not get mystical. It should be based on performance.
     
  14. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Upcoming matches should be geared towards getting the team reading for the Olympic Qualifiers. Quality overage players should be mixed with into group. The team should not be built around those older players.
     
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  15. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    They all count. But the rosters were what they were. There is no denying the US had an incredibly easy half of the bracket.

    Tyler Adams was just a right back, per 3G. Cannon did more than fine in the spot.

    3G has always been lauded for the way he sets his teams up. That's great. He got whooped in the second half. Game. Set. Match.

    Once a little pressure was applied, a system that relied on Bradley and Ream got exposed.

    I expected a victory against the Mexican B team. I was not expecting the US to get so over-run in that second half. That was a horrible coaching job by 3B.
     
  16. manfromgallifrey91

    Swansea City
    United States
    Jul 24, 2015
    Wyoming, USA
    Club:
    Southampton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think he is calling for the opportunities for those players to do that. Its tough to take your opportunity when you get called into a camp and barely get any minutes. So, and I may not be articulating exactly the point of other posters, but give those people the minutes because earning those minutes at this point is not important, given the players they are replacing are subpar at this level or going forward.

    In a perfect system you have young players overtake the older players, but when your system completely goes off the rails with a bad group of players, its best to just wash your hands of them and go young. Let them make mistakes and weed out ones clearly not at this level. Djordie I think has just regressed badly since January, so writing him off forever is not the right decision, but calling him again so soon after a run of bad games isnt needed. Time to check another option.

    And I think, for me anyway, thats the most frustrating thing. Dave needed maybe 1 camp, and then a permanent coach put in to build cohesion and just test players in ultimately meaningless games. Now we have nations league, qualifiers and just recently the GC (which GB wanted to win and not just get progress, hence some of the weird callups) so it feels a wasteful gap.

    To my 11 though, I see things a bit differently right now than some here and I think youll fall into the camp of starting over or holding over a few players for leadership, I fall into the former:
    -------------------Horvath
    Cannon---Miazga---Brooks-----Arriola
    --------------Adams---McKinnie
    Boyd-----------------------------------Pulisic
    ---------Nova-------------Sargent

    My bench would be
    Steffen
    Amon
    Gall
    Altidore
    Soto
    Yedlin
    Robinson
    Richards
    EPB
    Pomykal
    Weah
    Sabbi
    Morales

    Then rotate players after theyve played and showed they arent up to it yet.

    Gives us a more target forward to allow Sargent to not have to hold up play yet, as he isnt as adept at that as Nova or Jozy, and maximizes his strengths of running the channels and combo play.

    If we had to win a game I would go with my starting 11 though, I feel it offers the best balance and combo play with a look towards building and getting better.
     
  17. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Did Berhalter out-coach martino in the first half? What did he do that was different from the previous game?

    Miazga over Zimmerman? Was there a tactical switch?

    The only thing I can think of is the move away from building from the back and towards playing more direct in the first 10 minutes (which I heartily approve of).
     
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  18. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Cannon is a great example of this.
     
  19. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Does it matter if there was a change? We generated a stronger set of changes and generally owned the run of play.

    Coaching isn't just halftime adjustments. If Tata is so superior and Berhalter didn't change anything, why didn't Tata do his adjustments earlier?

    I don't think anyone thinks our talent was vastly superior to Mexico's. And I didn't love Berhalter's subs - though they weren't as awful as people said. Tata made adjustments at halftime, and Berhalter reacted in about 15 minutes ... to some success but not enough.

    But given that our talent wasn't superior, I keep coming back to the fact that people's damning indictment of the team, the system, the coach comes down to Dos Santos' shot being one inch low enough and Jozy and CP botching EASY opportunities.

    I don't think Berhalter is some savant, but there's not a lot of justification that he was outcoached wildly over the course of the game, either.
     
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  20. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    We can disagree but the only thing I can think of is not being wedded to his possession oriented approach to start the game. If that was indeed his decision (and it appears it may be), that was notable.

    He got owned later on and his reactions were point-blank terrible. Hopefully, this will at least get you to reconsider that he's been good in-game tactically.
     
  21. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The game is 90 minutes plus stoppage. You set up the team to allow yourself to win over that time. This includes half-time adjustments. Victories aren't awarded for first-half run-of-play dominance.
     
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  22. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    They are not impressed with the xG because they watched the game. Jozy is 1 v 1 with the keeper, he pulls his shot wide. That is a 0.44 xG event. Pizarro beats Bradley and Ream, squares the ball to the top of the 6 yd box for Jimenez, who just whiffs on the easy finish. That is a non-event for xG, but is at least an equal chance than Altidore's. Jimenez and Guardado had a few whiffs like that. xG is ok over long periods, but you can't use it like that. Outside of the first 20 minutes, Mexico was in control and for the last 50, dominated.

    Djorde and Lewis got into the team and GB kind of wrote them off. When we were overrun in midfield, did GB go to his bench and bring in Trapp, Djorde, Roldan, or anyone for Bradley? Plus, Pomykal is better than all the CMs on the GC roster that play in MLS. We know that because he plays in the same league and is better. Lewis being at the GC was a complete waste of his time and a roster spot.

    It is hard to lead from the bench. You can have veterans on the bench, but what can they really lead on then? Did Omar have some words of wisdom for Pulisic on how to handle the Champions League? Bradley and Ream were calm in possession, that is useful. Fabian would bring the same thing. But opposing CMs were just running by Bradley and Arriola had to work hard to help Ream. In the end, if a veteran is better than bring him. But this far from the WC, it is time to go with talent.

    Who is red-lining MLS? If anything, MLS has been completely over represented so far under GB. While coaches should evaluate talent, every Club in the world and every agent and every NT is doing the same. This tends to sort the players by competitive level already. There is no guy piddling along in MLS that is going to be inserted in the NT and become another Pulisic or even Arriola. Even guys like Adams and probably soon enough Pomykal and Long, that come from MLS will be moved to higher levels soon enough.

    We will see about Bradley. Omar should not have been on the GC team, and was. In fact, maybe 8-12 guys on the GC team might never feature again. That is a terrible use of the GC for the future.
     
  23. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Berhalter added an adjustment to the USA's defensive shape that caught Mexico a bit unaware. Also, Altidore, when fresh, was able to take advantage of shaky Mexican CB play. But it took Mexico only about 20 minutes to figure it out. Then they made adjustments and took over the game. GB could do or did nothing to help. In terms of game management, GB was poor against Mexico. Some of it was the roster, but that was mostly his fault too.

    MIazga over Zimmerman is not a tactical switch. Miazga is better than Zimmerman, and showed it after Zimmerman was horrible versus Curacao. Same with Cannon over Lima.

    Brooks would help as he can make the passes from CB that nobody on this roster could make. Having a third CM, who actually is a third CM is probably the tactical change that would have helped. Having a striker that can hold up and combine and create for 90 minutes would help. Altidore is fit but can't do it all game. He is aging out. Maybe Wood could do it for 60 and Jozy for 30. Or Jozy for 50 and Sargent or Wood for 40. But Jozy couldn't do it for long and Zardes couldn't do it at all.

    The biggest positive is that it is easiest to learn from defeat. Gregg has a lot to think about. Our defensive system all tournament was suspect. He tried to tweak it and there are better players who were hurt, but some serious thinking has to be done on when we don't have the ball.
     
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  24. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Pomykal is in the best form. It's a bit early to claim he is best, though.
     
  25. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Did you watch the game?

    Watch the game or listen to the Scuffed podcast. We had two good chances and were not clinical. We had a set piece chance later. But Mexico had a ton of chances and were incredibly wasteful. That was why it was only 1-0. That is why people that actually watched the game are not coming up with the same rosy scenario you are. Yes, we were good for 20 minutes in a 90 minute game.

    Tata actually did make changes and they were effective. Greg didn't really and what he did didn't help. But I'm not sure Gregg wanted to win more than he wanted to see what happened.
     
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