The Twitter and r/soccer types are for the most part people who don't even know the rules governing free kicks and corners. Here, at least people know that.
Two things can be true. Fans overrate our talent, however this is the most talented squad we have ever had.
And yet there is no evidence of half the things you have said to justify USSF being full competent in the coach hiring process. You read the tea leaves and say USSF is getting a bad wrap, the tea leaves tell me different. But sure please point to the factual, tangible, provable evidence that Marsch is lying and USSF were not swayed by the players.
I don’t think our current talent level is the most talented squad we’ve ever. I think it’s got the most potential of any team we’ve had. Most that potential has yet to be realized however and we are best probably 20th in the world in overall talent. And at worse roughly 30th. Of our current squad how many players do you think would currently start on an all time USMNT XI?
I think we all agree they were swayed by the players. But that doesn’t mean you need to take Jesse Marsch at his word he was treated unscrupulously.
"Sir, there is a call from the colonies. They need a manager." "Canada?" "No, sir. The Yanks." "What good players they got, Steve?" "Hum... Antonee Robinson and Carter-Vickers, sir." "Ouch. Tell them I plan to keep this job."
You are mixing talent and best. Based on how far along these kids are at their current age? Based on actual technique and touch, dribble and ball control? These guys are light years ahead. The problem in my opinion, is that similar to my clients who work these incredibly demanding businesses like running a restaurant or a diner or an auto shop and then it turns out the kids don't want the business cause they don't want that kind of job they rather be fancy businessmen elsewhere, these kids don't have the chip on their shoulder. That is going to be on the next coach and some sports psychologist to really create the US versus them atmosphere and hunger to prove we belong that drove a lot of the previous teams and most of the guys that would make an all-time best 11.
Well, you see that is where I part ways with you, gogo and boogey. I chose to believe Marsch. That is my choice and you have made yours. We each have our own motivations for doing so. But we can agree that Fed listened to the players, I believe maybe too much.
I think that’s the problem, taking Marsch at his word because it furthers what you already believe. When in reality he’s not an uninterested party here and one shouldn’t pass judgement without more facts.
The thing is it doesn’t matter they are further along at their current age. It matters what they can produce in the current moment. A player like Musah has a ton of talent. But it’s not as if he had a great season with AC Milan or has realized that talent. Similarly Gio Reyna has plenty of potential. But he’s coming off injuries and a lost season where two clubs didn’t play him much at all. He’s still all just potential. And on and on. What matters is where these guys are in the here and now, not where they could be in the future.
It is as much as a choice as your choice. Of choosing to believe in the federation being 100% professional and carrying on in a man of contrary to what they're being accused of. As long as we recognize it's a choice by you and buy me then so be it
I don't want to be pedantic like some of the others in here but the debate was is this almost talented squad and yes the incredibly talented. It's a separate debate if we're going on if they've maximize that talent and reach their full potential with that talent.
Yes it’s my choice to go off things which are actually sourced and evidence based and criticize accordingly based off of that.
I still think aggregate salaries/value is a statistically representative way to represent their potential quality (and this current squad has a reasonably high total value) ... but that does not diminish that fans can overrate and that the men can underperform ... all of those elements can be true at the same time .... properly valued, overrated, underperformed .... just like has been true for over 25 years now ... we need steadily improving quality in the MLS and the academies, we need players testing themselves in the top overseas leagues, and we need quality coaching everywhere ..... watching Spain control their game just reinforced for me the criticality of coaching at the youth level - those technical skills don't magically happen between the ages of 13 - 18 ... they start well before that ....
The relevancy of talent to this thread -- a Berhalter is fired thread -- is the team's performance relative to expectations. If you set expectations to talent that is not currently realized even at club, those expectations would seem to be to be too high. Setting current national team performance requirements based on what Yunus Musah might be at 26 is inappropriate; setting current performance requirements to what Yunus Musah is now is correct. Debate over the word "talented" is semantics, but is relevant and important in this case. We rarely see things like "these is the best player pool we've ever had" but instead "this is the most talented." That's because, I think, everyone implicitly realizes that while the potential of this player pool is higher than ever, the actual current performance is not, even ignoring national team play.
Absolutely, but put a prime Tim Howard in goal right now and we aren’t having this debate…both things are true and that skews our perception of what a coach can accomplish. The overall pool is definitely better than any we’ve had, but the imbalance leaves it somewhat irrelevant.
I have no idea if US Soccer considers this its purview, but if I were Crocker I would be putting Howard and others on the case of exactly what has happened here. I get that the requirements for keeper has changed. But before we even get to that, what happened to our pipeline in terms of simple shot stopping? We can perhaps write off Turner on rust and maybe too much work on the other parts of the game, but where are the shot stoppers who at least dominate there? Are we getting too foo-foo in our training? Are we not getting the athletes that guys like Howard and Friedel were? We definitely don't seem to be getting the size consistently you'd expect. I'm really curious because while we could not have expected the outliers to continue nor would guys like Friedel or Howard have played as much at the level they did with the skillset change ... it's not like we're awash in strong shot stoppers who just aren't great with their feet. I will say I do think the current milieu is to punch and parry if you have any concern about catching, and I think that's been a huge part of Turner's decline -- so many rebound goals. Just catch it, dude. You're American. We do that.
Haha. Congrats on your belief your moral superiority and use a step ladder when getting off that horse.
Dude scroll up. The debate is fans overrate the talent we have and says this the most talented squad ever. On talent and ability, MMA is more talented than Jones Bradley and Rastaman. However, the unquantifiable fire that Jones possessed was greater than all of MMA combined.
USA : Why are there no good American goalkeepers? :: Brazil : How can our squad be 4th best in South America? Maybe an exception to the reasonable assumption that we need guys training with top European clubs so they can have the best coaching staffs to improve their skills week to week?
The only point anyone has of evaluating the talent is evaluating team performance relative to it. If you are simply asking does this pool have the most potential, I would agree with two caveats: We're talking about two generations of four that generally fill a national team. The 1997-2000 generation is very strong, and the 2001-2004 is also pretty good. But if we're talking the broader pool that should exist ... we're still missing that depth. Goalkeeper is the single most impactful position and it's a disaster relative to the past in potential and performance. Centerback is also very weak in both potential and performance -- only Richards and maybe McKenzie are really currently in the pool with real upside potential, IMO. I guess technically Jalen Neal is in the 2001-2004 generation, but that should tell you how thin upside is right now. The gap is simply not as big as people think in terms of even potential, because we have gaping holes here. And that's before we get to performance. Talent and ability are not the same thing. I don't even know what you mean by ability. Do you mean technical ability? If you think there's a big gap in favor of MMA over Jones and Bradley in performance even for club, I think you are crazy. Tyler hasn't played in like two years. I love McKennie, and he did well for Juventus, but they don't play him centrally. Jones was a good Bundesliga player for years, and Bradley was an all action 8 that was as good or better than McKennie until he got hurt. Musah sits the bench right now -- those other two guys were starters and key players at their prime. The current group is far deeper in potential, but a team with Dempsey, Donovan, Bradley, Jones, Howard, Cherundolo, Onyewu, etc. These guys were just as good. The ~2010 era roster quality was about as good ~2022 or now. Hopefully by 2026 that won't be true.
I was thinking about this too watching England and Pickford. I don't think Pickford really needed to "stand on his head" in any particular game, but I feel like just about every game, he made at least 1 or 2 really good saves that kept the game level or kept England down by only 1 so that they could pull off their late game heroics. We just aren't getting those saves at this point. It seems like every good shot on net is going in.