Let me say first I'm an Arsenal Fan and can't stand SAF. That being said, as a United supporter would you rather now have Sir Alex or Beckham? I noticed in a "Dream Transfer" thread many listed Beckham back. I realize you guys had a travelling side show with him, but was it that different than the Jordan Bulls. They still won. Last season injuries and suspension cost Arsenal down the last two months and they ran out of gas, and you guys beat us, fair and square. But despite your record, I don't think you have a better team this year than last. Much was made out of the no man is bigger than the team issue when Beckham was sold, but isn't that the same problem you have with Sir Alex. Could another manager not do as well with your talent? I think the prem. is a less colorful place without Beckham and I suspect many United supporters do also. I also think Sir Alex's personal problems with Beckham cost you in the Champions league last year. No one really thinks Ole' Gunner was better than Beckham do they. Winning is only rewarding when you beat the other man at his best. I was just wondering what the general consensus is the Untied camp is.
I will love the Red Devils just as much if they win now as if they had won with Beckham. And even if they lose I will too. I admit I first started liking Manchester United because of Beckham, but thats only because I am an American and he is much more exposed (not in that way) over here than anyone else. Soo.. there... thanks
Well, I think we do have a better team now than last year, we are younger and we know where we will turn to in the next 3-4 years at the possitions of Right Half (Ronaldo), Withdrawn Striker/Attacking Mid. (Kleberson) and we picked up useful players like DjDj, Phil has become a new player, so I think we have done excellent... You seem to forget that Ole Gunnar has been injured most of the season... and Scholes was missing for much of the season as well, we were without either of them for several matches, yet, we were able to pull through it quite well. And Ole Gunnar is better than Beckham... not at crossing or freekicks or corners but at doing what we really need, that is working really hard, finishing and boosting the attack. He had 15 goals last year, Scholes had 20 and Giggs had 14 i think thats the kind of production we need from our midfielders... Becks did not do it, and he did not create as many goals as Ole scored, so it was a good move tactically to sell him... we also sold Veron who, like becks needs the ball to make an impact and plays a slower brand of football, we have began use of the blitzkrieg attack fast and furious.... If Arsenal lost Pires and Ljunberg I think yall would be mid table... Our problems were not just with midfield at one point we had 3-4 defenders down at the start... we came through that as well, hell we made Fortune into a better left back than Ashley Cole (and im not joking). We lost the guy who was supposed to replace becks and we still on top! How can there be any question that we are a stronger team? I just don't know...
Re: Re: Re: Beckham v. Sir Alex, a Gunners perspective I don't think you are better, you are more consistent. Which is why you are ahead of Arsenal (for now). You take care of your business against lower half teams. Somthing we have a problem with. Your back line has matured with Howard and without Barthez giving away 1 out 10 games by himself, your better defensively. (come on, even you guys had to have laughed out loud when the chip during the Stoke friendly bounced off the top of his head and into the net) Check your record against the 6 teams closest to you. 3 wins 2 loses 2 draw + 1 on goal diff. The United Team of the last three months of last season was better, IMO But this is not was I was asking about originally.
1. Thank you - last season ended about eight months ago and this is the VERY FIRST time that I have heard an Arsenal fan say this. 2. Is Ole better at passing/crossing? No. Is Ole is better right-mid overall? Probably not. Does Ole have more time on his side? No. Does Ole work harder and suit the team more, thus resulting in better results? Yes. Just look at who was starting in the right-mid position towards the end of last season.
^ Makes you feel good doesn't it? The reason Gunners have difficulty saying you people beat us is because we really believe we beat ourselves. Either way, you played like winners down the stretch and you do have the trophy.
Maybe we're just happy to find a truly intelligent Gooner among all the other "usual suspects". Cheers.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Beckham v. Sir Alex, a Gunners perspective Hey, by the way... against the top six... you have 3 wins, 3 draws... and + 3 on GD... a whopping 1 point advantage on us (although u have a game in hand). Guess what consistent is better... also, you try facing 5 of those top six teams without one of your starting midfielders which is what we had to do with injuries to Scholes and Ole... in fact we played 2 or 3 of those games with neither of them IIRC. Newsflash... almost any ManU team in the last 3 months of the season is better than almost any ManU team around the transfer break... Here is what i dont get... Your team had a lead last season, but managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but when have a lead early in the season despite injury problems and the sale of Beckham we are weaker than last season??? Wha??? I get it you are just that much weaker this season than last and that accounts for our lead right??? Oops... I forgot, you are undefeated...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beckham v. Sir Alex, a Gunners perspective I'm sorry did you say 1 point advantage AND a game in hand. We've played half the season with our Captain, including the run it last season. So stop whining about injuries. This is the reason that (some not all) ManU fans (noticed I didn't say ManUre out of respect, this is your forum) especially those in Mid-America are seen as a bunch of front-running pricks, because some ACTUALLY ARE. I don't even think ManU fans want or appreciate respect, because when given you can't offer it in return. Curiously though, no one has addressed the question this thread started with. Just admit it, you'd dump SAF over the first bridge to have Beckham back.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Beckham v. Sir Alex, a Gunners perspective I could be wrong on this but I believe Man U have faced more serious injury concerns this season than Arsenal. Sweeping generalisations are not particularly helpful and erode any clarity to your points (weird - you start out with the Man U "respect" comment and then revert to abuse and generalisations, especially when the same can be said about a number of Arsenal fans). As to the Beckham question? In all honesty, I would stay with Fergie. He has proven time and again that he knows when to sell a big player. Ince, Kanchelskis, Stam etc. I believe there were "issues" within the squad involving Beckham and that it was a choice of selling one player or another. Letting Beckham go allows SAF to create a faster, more fluid style of attacking football - a style that Beckhams lack of pace prohibited (remember how OGS linked into the team at the end of last season?).
There are such fans from every team. Fans who won't just accept that its their own team that produces wind and losses, but go on ranting about others. It's a given, and we definitely try to minimize it here in the United forum. I don't think johno is one of those fans, IMO. He was simply reacting to say that against the top teams, we are roughly equal. I don't think that makes him a prick, but whatever. In the end, may the best team win. Sure we'd all like to compare random stats, but at the end of the season, the only stat that counts is points. It should be an exciting second-half of the year.
Not in a million years. Becks was great, and brought all sorts of new fans to the team, as well as a certain image that isn't always associated with anything Manchester. But Fergie has molded this team for nearly the past two decades. He has brought us glory by choosing the right players, developing new ones, and always making sure we stay true to our goals of winning silverware. Sure, we may not have found a permanent replacement for Becks--yet--but we've got plenty of talent in the queue. I rank SAF higher than even coaches like Bill Walsh and Phil Jackson when it comes to knowing how to succeed. Becks is class, but Fergie is nothing short of genius.
Re: Re: Beckham v. Sir Alex, a Gunners perspective The stat part was a compliment to United amazing consistency. Lets face it we have failed to beat 2 of the bottom four teams in the league, you guys put away bad oppenents. We'd be 3 points clear at this point if we could put away relegation fodder. (we complain about this in our forum consistently) and come on, the chip off Bartez's head was funny as hell. You guys are probably lucky it happened, because I think it killed off the last few critics of putting the 3rd choice (though not anymore) American in goal for the famous United.
Re: Re: Re: Beckham v. Sir Alex, a Gunners perspective That's very true. I once heard a quote something along the lines of, "to win, you don't have to beat all the good teams, just all the bad ones." It is a strange league this year though, with the bottom 14 or so teams separated by not a whole lot. Matches that you expect to win by a lot can end up as nail-biters. Remember, we only beat Wolves 1-0 at OT earlier in the year, and that only because they missed several key chances late in the game. Winning can be a lot harder than it looks. As a fellow Red Sox fan, I know how frustrating it can be when you don't win those games that can make or break a season.
Re: Re: Beckham v. Sir Alex, a Gunners perspective I'm also a White Sox fan so I can admit when a team pisses it down the drain and thats what Arsenal did last year. I mean the Sox haven't won a playoff series since 1954 and don't expect them to do a Cubs this year because they don't have the guns to do it.
Prick Makes Apology! In late breaking news, ManU and Arsenal fans have negotiated a brief cease fire on the BigSoccer boards... Well known prick and instigator Mtkillamanjohno has admitted to: 1. Not agreeing with every Arsenal fan (a crime in London, punishable by name calling...) 2. Stating the obvious (again, a crime in London with a penalty of sarcasm) "I'm sorry did you say 1 point advantage AND a game in hand" Yes I did... you make it seem like yall did all that much better than we did! But... being a ManU fan (and therefore the bigger man) killa has decided that yes... you know what? WE WANT BECKS, WE WANT BECKS, WE WANT BECKS!!! Because deep down inside... we want to validate Arsenal's whiners... let them do everything but admit that "our team is better than yours... damn right, its better than yours, we could teach you, but we'd have to charge... LA LA, LA LA, LA.... score some goals... " My apologies for those of you not familiar with the song above... -------------------------------------------------- Curiously though, no one has addressed the question this thread started with. Just admit it, you'd dump SAF over the first bridge to have Beckham back. -------------------------------------------------- You must have missed this "And Ole Gunnar is better than Beckham... not at crossing or freekicks or corners but at doing what we really need, that is working really hard, finishing and boosting the attack. He had 15 goals last year, Scholes had 20 and Giggs had 14 i think thats the kind of production we need from our midfielders... Becks did not do it, and he did not create as many goals as Ole scored, so it was a good move tactically to sell him... we also sold Veron who, like becks needs the ball to make an impact and plays a slower brand of football, we have began use of the blitzkrieg attack fast and furious...." Note... this story is not from a very reputable source... the headline was a sham, however, the word "apology" is used somewhere in this story...
anyone care to change their position on this matter after the wolves games? cause you sound like it in the result thread. its ok to change
If you read the threads you'll see that there are two quite distinct sets of Utd fans here. There are those who refuse to see any problems with Utd and those who feel that there's a lack of depth about the Utd squad this season. The Wolves result supports the arguments of the latter. It's not so much that we miss Beckham as we miss Ronaldinho, or more exactly a creative player of equal ability. Losing Beckham and Veron - two world class midfielders - and gaining a batch of young players who may well turn out to be so but at some point in the future has left Utd short of creative play. To present this as being a case of Beckham or Ferguson is to misread the situation - the failure to bring in an experienced attacking player I believe comes more from the money men and Utd's status as a PLC than from Alex. If it's true that every cloud has a silver lining then the Wolves result - not just the result but the manner of the result - will strengthen Alex's hand and we will see some attacking flair added to the team during this transfer Window.
Most of the calls were not for Becks but for another striker... which is needed, has been needed and will not be ended until we find a partner for Ruud... the hell with this back-up for him... I used to buy into that theory but face it you put your best 11 on the field and if we buy another striker he should be good enough to play next to Ruud... there is absolutely no reason that Phil Neville should be a midfielder... none.
>but face it you put your best 11 on the field Not when you're playing nearly 50-60 matches a season you don't. You need to rest players, you need to substitute them during matches, you need to cater for loss of form and injury. If a single injury significantly affects the quality of play such as would happen if RvN gets injured then your squad building is flawed. If the players on the field are not doing the job you need to have players on the bench who can bring about a change. When you need a goal then you don't want to be looking at Bellion or Forlan as your best option. In today's game you need a squad of players not a team. And if that squad has been well constructed then the quality of play should not change too much when a couple of guys are not available for whatever reason. Utd took the field against Wolves with only one significant attacking player injured- Solksjaer - and only one striker on the pitch. Yet when they needed to up the ante, push hard for a goal then the best they could do was Bellion and Forlan. Now I don't know what your idea of Utd is but mine is that they're one of the best 5 teams in Europe and the idea, that a manager of one of the best 5 in Europe can only introduce one of those two when he needs to pile on the pressure for a goal and he only has one injury and one striker already on, is idiotic.
Wow, funny i thought we were agreeing there... I was simply stating that the striker we get should be good enough to play alongside Ruud and be one of our best 11 players... if he is, then that gives us Forlan and Bellion as options 3 and 4, not options 2 and 3... in the event we stay with the 4-5-1 and play the system based game as opposed to the personnel based game then we have a good striker on the bench (one so good he could partner Ruud and displace a midfielder if need be)...
Looks like we got Saha - only a few details to complete (where have I heard that before? ) - so we've got what we both wanted
SAF no argument. No player is bigger than the team and SAF will know himself when he is ready to retire. Becks was an awesome player for us and on his day would have walked into the right-sided midfield position in any team. Problem is his wife wanted away and he wanted a central midfield position which with Keane / Scholes (the two players more valuable to the team in my mind than him) he was not going to get. His agents were stalling on a deal so although it is painted the other way around I think he left us rather than we got rid of him. His crossing and passing were fantastic but defenders had started to suss that if you marked him closely he didn't have the pace or dribbling skill to do any different. Aside from his free-kicks (again awesome) he didn't score many. So I believe that owing to this and Becks inconsistent form Ole was there on merit. I think his leaving was a win-win. In SAF we trust.