Have I been proven wrong? Seriously, I would love to hear your argument. So far all I've heard from you was a statement about 6-letter nicknames, offtop about Ronaldo and the statement about Reyes. None of it was impressive, I must say. Unless MU buys Baptista and he has a great season, I don't see anything wrong whatsoever with my argument. So far every Latin American midfielder/forward that we've had failed miserably in our club. And all of them were superstars and proved they could play on the highest level in other clubs. [offtop] Did I just see a 3 minute commercial of David Beckham on FSC channel about him coming to USA??? [/offtop]
Had to neg rep again huh? No problem I refuse to your uneducated level. BS is probably your like iah.
See, now, here is my problem with your argument. Aside from that, I merit what you're saying even if I disagree. Neither Forlan nor Kleberson were superstars. I would not even call them stars of the game, neither in Europe nor even South America. Forlan had an impressive season with Independiente, and he was only starting to make waves, but by no means was he a star. At that time, Saviola was a brighter star in SA, and yet he didn't even get a mention here. ********, even big Martin Palermo was a bigger star. Forlan was destined for Middlesbrough, that was his level. He had never played with the pressures of being the top dog, as we were then, undisputed, and Independiente is far behind Boca and River in that respect, today. Kleberson is even less than Forlan. Even though I don't follow Brazilian jogo as well as the Argies, I know that Kleberson was not a star there. He was an up and comer, but he was no star. His play in the World Cup relied on injuries to the squad, not because he was head and shoulders above other players. He had a good run of form with Brazil, but playing with that quality of team-mates, its hard to look bad. Plus, Brazil had a point to prove, due to the fiasco in France. Kleberson was not a star! People even speculated that we had bought the wrong Kleber. Veron is a whole other monster, because he was well known, but at that point in time, the Argies were calling for his head on the Nat team. No one but Bielsa wanted him on the team. His performances were declining, and Argentina was suffering because of it. To bluntly state my point against you, Manchester United has never succeeded with SA stars because we've yet to buy a South American star. We were close to Ronaldinho, and I'm guessing that you were against buying him too. If a player like Paul Scholes could be successful on our team, a player like Juan Roman Riquelme would also succeed. He is a SA star, but we never tried to buy him. We never tried to buy Carlos Tevez, either. He would have been a better selection than Forlan. What about Fernando Cavenaghi? These were the stars of SA, but we chose second hand players, and that is exactly what we got. We didn't go for the stars, and that is where your argument is flawed. Peace out! I realize I mostly named Argentine players. I always was impressed by some brazilian kid named Alex, but i'm not sure which one because there were like 10 of them at the time. I think he wore the number 7 shirt for Brazil a couple of times around 99 or 01. Plus, who could forget Adriano? Do you think he could not score goals in the EPL? Somehow, I'm not seeing Kleberson at his level.
You're missing the point. Forlan has just won the scoring title in La Liga! He outscored Ronaldo, he outscored Baptista, he outscored Torres. And I am sure that if he went straight from Independiente to Villareal, he would've had similar success from the very beginning. But he struggled in MU, I think we both agree. So he can have success in South America and he can have success in Spain, which he's already proven, but he couldn't do it for Manchester United. Well, he cost us more than Djemba-Djemba, Miller and Bellion combined. He did start every single game for the World Champions. Scolari, Brazil NT coach said before the transfer that he thought Kleberson was one of his best players. Here is what Scolari said about him: "My plans are to build a team around him that will be good enough to defend our title in Germany in four years time." Would a Brazilean coach ever consider building his team around an average player? Wait, so you are suggesting that MU spent $40 mln. on a washed up non-superstar player??? He was 26, coming off a good season in Serie A, and if you didn't call him a superstar then, I don't know what a superstar is. Sorry, I just don't buy it. Wait a second. Do you honestly believe that Cavenaghi right now is a better player than Veron was 5 years ago playing in Serie A?? The same guy that doesn't often even get a chance to start for a third-placed Russian team??? See, I agree that Riquelme is a great player. And Ronaldinho is probably the best player in the world. But I don't think they would be successful in Premiership. Particularly, playing in MU. As I said, there are exceptions to every rule. Ronaldo and Adriano would probably be successful regardless of where they end up playing. Although I am sure Ronaldo would not have lasted long in the Premiership because of injuries - the play is simply too physical for him. It's much closer to Serie A in that sense. And as you remember, he couldn't get it going there because of injuries. So yes, generally I think that most South American "big name" attacking players would struggle in MU, but there may be one or two exceptions.
Assuming he took nothing away from his experiences at Manchester United, games, practice, scrimmaging. You are taking his accomplishments now and using them to fuel your argument. My statement was simply that at the time of their purchase, Forlan and Kleberson were far from superstars, because this is the term you used, my friend. The whole reason he didn't make it at Manchester United is a whole 'nother topic, and it has nothing to do with his nationality. Not that he was an average player. He just was not a superstar. Plenty of coaches have said similar things about players because they see potential, but many players potential goes unfulfilled. I'm not saying that Klebs sucks, he just wasn't a superstar. He could have even been an above average player, but he was not superstar. Name the squad he was in. They would probably make you look like a player Scolari could build a team around. I didn't say he was washed up yet. He was on a downward spiral, so to speak. His form was declining. He was a known player, I admitted that. That we spent that much money on him does not signify much, because at that time money was being thrown around like stale bread. And your statement is as if Veron is the rule, as opposed to the exception. Basing your argument of 3 players is silly. Plus, Veron was a player that changed our methods of play. We were forced to play him along four because SAF could not bench Scholes. He was mainly bought to play in Europe, and in the CL, he wasn't that poor, either. No, no, no. You see, we are all running in circles with you because your arguments run around like that. I didn't say that Cavenaghi was better now, but he was a superstar in South America when he was there. When he was sold to Russia, he was one of the best goal scorers in the league, for a couple of seasons. You are misconstruing my argument. He was a top player when he was sold, that we didn't go for him shows that we weren't going for the top stars in South America. Tell me, how much did you know about Kleberson before we bought him? Before the World Cup? Don't search the internet for quotes and the sort. Tell me off the top of your head. I never said that Cavenaghi was better than Veron at the time we bought him, you are making assumptions. When you assume...yeah, I think you know where that goes. Ronaldinho could cut it in any league, on any team, no matter what the coach. Some players just transcend. Riquelme, imho, is of the same cloth. He's not as fancy, but he could easily do what Scholes does. And frankly, without him, Forlan wouldn't look as good as you think he does. Ok, name those "big name" attacking players. Did Forlan 'fail' at ManUtd because of the physical nature? Is Kleberson of the same cloth as Baptista? What makes Scholes better suited for the PL as opposed to Riquelme? Why do you think Ronaldinho would have failed?
Stud83, Here's a little exercise in logic for you... Take the following two statements: (A)All South American players cannot play well in England. (B)Some South American players cannot play well in England. A is obviously false because there are players from South America who have done well in England e.g. Gilberto, Edu. B is true because we have the cases of Veron and Forlan. Now, this whole argument about South American players started because you claim that Baptista won't fit in at United because he is South American. We know that Baptista is South American. (this is a true statement) If statement A was true, then you could justifiably conclude that since Baptista is South American AND all South American players cannot play well in England, then Baptista cannot play well in England. But we know that statement A is false, and so you can't say Baptista will be a failure in the Premiership without giving other evidence - that is all we are asking you to do...explain what aspects of his game would make him less suited to the English game and it will give your argument some weight. Others and myself have already mentioned why we think he would be a good fit in any Premiership side - he has a good work rate, good pace, he has an immense physical presence, is strong in the tackle, and is versatile. Okay, maybe you want to change statement A to: All South American attackers and midfielders cannot play well at Manchester United. Well, there's obviously no way to prove this statement since for it to be proven true then all South American players in existence would need to play at Manchester United and fail. If one South American attacker or midfielder can play well at United, then we know that the statement is false. But just because to date there hasn't been a South American attacker or midfielder who has been relatively successful at United, it does NOT make the statement true. As I said, the only way to prove that statement would be to have all South American players play at United - but obviously there's no way to do that. So since it is impossible to prove that statement, you can go about trying to argue it and give evidence as to why South American players would fail at United. So far, you've mentioned the names of three SAmerican players who haven't lived up to expectations at United (of the three, one still has a chance to change this). Well, that hardly holds any weight mainly for the fact that is a very small number. OK, so then you try another approach, where you actually try and explain instead of using just a couple of examples...you might claim that South Americans cannot adapt to the pace of the Premiership. But again, you can't prove that ALL South Americans will not adapt, because we already know that Gilberto has adapted well to the pace of the Premiership. In the end, you have to accept that there will always be exceptions, even if in hindsight it seems that some types of players will not adapt well to the Premiership. Some of us believe that Baptista is one such exception - and we have reasons to backup our claim. On the other hand, you believe that Baptista will fail at United, only because he is South American, and not only is that reasoning (if it could be called 'reasoning') narrow-minded, prejudiced, bigotted and oversimplified, but its also pretty stupid. If you are willing to argue that Baptista won't fit in because of certain attributes e.g "outfield players weighing a tonne never do well at United because of the way we play", or something like that we'll be prepared to listen and offer our counterarguments. But so far all we've done for almost two pages now is argued back and forth about your first (ridiculous) premise - that ALL South American players will not do well at United, and hence Baptista will fail in Manchester.
OK, do you think that if Forlan were to come back to MU right now, he would have a very good chance to become a leading scorer in our team, let alone Premiership? The point I'm trying to get across is that not every player is capable of succeeding in Man United. And based on the recent transfers/results, I think it's pretty obvious that the whole SA-MU marriage is not working out at all for attacking players (again, nothing against defenders and/or keepers). Well, again, we can argue the whole day about definition of superstars, but the argument I made stands: he did not live up to the expectations. I'm sure MU expected more from him when they got him. Don't you agree? Even if you don't consider him a superstar. He did not play well in MU. Period. Care to elaborate about the whole stale bread thing? And why couldn't SAF bench Scholes?? Wasting 40 mln on a player that would play only 10 games per year in CL??? I seriously doubt your logic here. If I remember correctly, the transfer was in TOP 10 of all times at the time. And only Figo and Zidane (with countless individual as well as team trophies) were standing above him among the world's most expensive midfielders. Oh yeah, there was also Mendieta. Another midfielder. Another bust from La Liga. Beckham's transfer was also expensive, but because of his worldwide celebrity status it was pretty obvious. And Veron was not bought to sell shirts, I'm pretty sure about that. Let me ask you the same question I asked listen_up_fergie: How many failures would it take for you to realize that I made a good point? 5? 10? 20? 60? Three is more than enough for me, considering we have other options. Namely, Essien. I didn't know much about him, I admit. But then again, I don't know much about "the next big thing", according to many players - Robinho, so it's not an issue. Manchester United bought him after he was a part of the team that won the World Cup. So if he's good enough to play for the World Champions, surely he's good enough to have some success in Manchester United, right? So he played well IN Brazil, he played well FOR Brazil NT, and he sucked here. Plain and simple. Forlan failed because of many factors, and physical nature is one of them. I don't know whether Baptista is of the same cloth as Kleberson, but I do not want to find out and I hope he stays in La Liga and keeps playing great there. Scholes has spent his whole life in the Premiership, while Riquelme along with Forlan right now are playing for a team that has 10 (if not more) players from South America. I don't think Scholes would have been successful in La Liga, and I don't think Riquelme would've been successful in Manchester United. Well, maybe Liverpool. As far as Ronaldinho - I just think he would not have been able to live up to the expectations in England. Fergie always praises the team concept and he doesn't really know how to use creative attacking midfielders. That's why Fergie never really wanted to even try playing Beckham in the middle, and another reason why Veron or Kleberson had no success in the club. La Liga is by far the best place for all the attacking creative and tricky midfield players. Not Premiership though.
That's close, but not exactly what I said. I also said on numerous occasions that there were exceptions. Again, read my statement above. There are exceptions to every rule. You are missing the point though. Look at the title of the topic. Essien or Baptista. I said that IMO Manchester United should go for Essien and not Baptista. And one of the reasons they should do it is because the history of SA players in MU has not been either rich or successful! There is a greater chance that Baptista will fail, compared to Essien. That is not to say I guarantee his failure, but it's more likely. Seriously, how many times do I have to ask the same question? How many failures would it take for you to understand my point? Suppose, MU bought 10 Brazileans over the years and 8 of them failed - would that be good enough? What if the percentage of failure was 75%? Would you even pay attention to this stat? Yes, I do accept that there are exceptions. I already said it. And maybe Baptista is this exception. I just do not want to find out, because I think the chances of him failing are greater. Let me ask you this. And please, be honest. Did you expect Veron to be one of the biggest busts of all times? Did you expect Forlan to suck that badly at MU and become the leading scorer in La Liga the year he got out? Did you expect Kleberson to suck as much as he did since he came in? So far all of your "counterarguments" are based on ridiculing my position, which is in fact well supported by the facts. Can you give me one example of an attacking SA player that adapted well in MU? Well, I can give you three that did not. And they were exceptional players in other teams. Of course, he may be an exception. The thing I'm trying to get accross is that given a choice between Essien and Baptista, I'm more confident in Essien's ability to adapt more quickly to the team. And I'm more confident Fergie would be able to figure out a way how to use Essien which will benefit the team the most. And I'm NOT confident that Baptista would adapt quickly and Fergie would find a way to use him in the most productive way.
There's someone who disagrees with you, and his name is Diego Forlan. "I have nothing but good words for the supporters and the people at the club for the way they treated me. Hopefully they feel happy for me right now, and United can take some of the credit for what I've achieved in Spain this season, because the things I learnt in Manchester was, in some ways, a positive experience that has contributed to my success." http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=335581&cc=5901
What "facts"? You have no facts. You have said nothing about Baptista so far, nothing about the way he plays, or his strengths and weaknesses. I don't want to ridicule you, but if you're going to try and say that Essien is the better for us because he isn't South American, it isn't a fact. You shouldn't be arguing using probabilities because this isn't a game of dice...you can't say that just because three South Americans have failed to impress, Baptista has a greater chance than Essien of being a flop. Before Ruud came to United, can you give me an example of a Dutch attacking player who did well at United? Your question here isn't evidence for anything other than the fact that three SAmerican attacking players that we've signed have flopped. This IS NOT an indication of any future SA signings. See, your problem is that you are basing your argument solely on nationality. All we are asking you to do is give more concrete evidence for why Essien is a better player than Baptista. What are your reasons to justify that Baptista will not be an exception - if you understand that there can be exceptions. I'm not against you favouring Essien over Baptista, but I am against you trying to justify your claims based solely on nationality. I mean come on, this is the kind of thinking that contributed to the holocaust.
There are a lot of good things about Baptista. He's big, strong, good in the air, and while he's not the speediest of forwards, he can easily overpower any defender. He has a very good shot from any distance and a decent positioning sense. Also, he has very good dribbling skills, which is kinda obvious I guess. He can play a bunch of different positions from DM to forward. Good enough? Well, do you want me to list all the great qualities about Veron from 2000?? Or from Forlan 2005? Come on, do you really think if Forlan came back he would've had any success in Manchester United? It's the same here. Baptista is an exceptional player. I just think he wouldn't fit in the team. As all of the previous SA were unable to do it. Fergie does not know how to use creative and versatile players. There were quite a few other Dutch players that did very well in the Premiership. And how many over $10 mln signings from Netherlands can you tell me that flopped in MU? Why Essien is a better player than Baptista? No, that's a wrong question to ask. The real question should be: why should MU try to get Essien rather than Baptista? Alrite, here are my points: 1. I think the ideal formation for MU for next year is 4-4-2. Essien would fit ideally into this formation in the middle. Baptista? I'm not sure. Where would he play? Would he start intstead of Rooney? As a third forward? As a DM, which he is not accustomed to? 2. Essien would have no problem with sitting on the bench in certain games. He's been a lifelong Man United fan, and surely he would understand why Keane and Scholes would be starting certain games in front of him. Baptista? I don't know. As I said, it would be harder to even find a place for him to start, and how would he react to being a second string player when one of the reasons why he wants out of Seville is to show that he deserves to be in the NT. 3. Rooney, RVN, Smith, Saha, Ole. That's 5 forwards. Baptista would be number 6. Even if Saha is gone, still 5 forwards is one too many. And I do think Ole is still quite capable of delivering. So basically, what choice would Fergie have? Play 3 forwards? Well, he might, but I don't think it could work well with our midfield and especially the fact that CRonaldo often plays very far up front. Then, if not, someone would be forced to play out of position. Would you want Rooney to become a full time midfielder? Or Baptista to try to adapt to Premiership style and become a full time midfielder? Is it worth the money to invest in a player and force him to play out of position? Essien, on the other hand, would fit in perfectly. Neither Keane nor Scholes are capable of playing a complete season, so he will get all kinds of playing time. He's also quite capable of playing as a right midfielder or as a central defender and a good one, which he proved in France. And with question marks all over Silvestre it's not a bad option to have. Plus, considering Jones is showing great potential, there is a very good chance that in 2-3 seasons Jones and Essien would be able to form a partnership and become a long-term regular starting CMs, complementing each other. And another important factor is the one I've been discussing all along. The previous 3 attacking SA players in Manchester United came in with great expectations... and failed. SAF wanted Veron, he got him. Not good. He couldn't wait to get rid of Forlan, and boom, he becomes the top scorer in La Liga. Not good. He wanted Kleberson and he hoped to make his midfield stronger, he got him, and the World Champion flopped. Let me make it as clear as possible: I like South American players. I think Ronaldinho totally deserved his award. I think Baptista is an exceptional player, and he can succeed in many different teams. I just don't think he's a good fit in our team.
And what was he supposed to say? That MU sucked? That Ferguson's stupid because he couldn't figure out how to use him? That the fans that wanted him out don't understand anything about soccer? Do you think if he returned to MU right now he would've scored 10 goals in a season? Be in the TOP 3 in his club in scoring, let alone Premiership? You are probably right. Anyways, he was in the squad of the World Champions and played some games there. And he started the final game I think. So he was an important member of the World Champions.
That wasn't what I was pointing out. He said specifically that his time at United contributed to his success at Villarreal. You said that he would have been a success going straight from Independiente to Spain. Forlan himself seems to dispute that. Everything else is irrelevant here. What does any of that have to do with Baptista? Why are you obviously ignoring the argument and using unrelated players and situations as "evidence" that Baptista would not be a success at United? If you're going to persuade people of that, you'll have to do better than the weak assertion that players who do well in Spain and/or South America can't flourish at United.
I think this discussion is gettting a little long and ..... well boring, IT seems like you guys cant come to any sort of agreement. Personally, IT all comes down to wether Fergie gives time, and has patience. With Forlan, he didnt give a decent Run out. Veron was given a chance, and in my opinion, He was starting to get more productive when Ole was on the right, and he was in the center towards the end of his last season. though he got chances, it took him long to adjust. I think the reason why everyone thinks high of Baptista, is his Size and physical play (which fit the EPL). Neither Forlan, Kleberson, or Veron were EPL built. Atleast this is what i see. Also .....Stud, why do you think South American players, dont make it. You may have said it, but i dont want to read through the whole thread.
OK, but the fact of the matter remains - he did not play well in MU. I guess we'll never find out. You started arguing about Forlan, saw a tough question and decided to change the subject? Smart move. I've listed other points on the previous page regarding Essien and Baptista, did you read them? So far attacking SA are 0-for-3 at flourishing at United with 3 strikeouts. That's almost as bad as an average day for Corey Patterson Considering that all of these players have been successful elsewhere on the highest level, I just can't see how one can simply ignore this fact. I think that one of the main reasons for their failure was that Fergie simply did not know how to fit them in his system. And what makes you think that Fergie would be able to find a way to get the most out of Baptista? I mean he hasn't been able to do it with others. You disagree? Give me your arguments then.
The point of asking you to build an argument based on players attributes is that it is the skills and abilities that make the player, not his country of origin. You've mentioned strength - this is one quality I feel Kleberson lacks, and accounts for part of the reason why he is unable to assert himself in Premiership games. I think in Veron's case, it was his weaknesses that were greatly exposed while playing for United - most notably his low work rate. There are other theories to why Veron failed at United, for example, he is the sort of player who needs the team's tactics to be centered around him, but at United it didn't happen. All I know is that it wasn't just because he was South American. Forlan's case is intriguing, but I think one explanation is simply that he never got a good run of games and he had a lot of pressure on him to score whenever he played at United. After his move to Spain, not much was expected for him, the pressure was less and he was able to hold down a regular place in the starting line-up. I think Forlan is the type of player who needs a good run of games to pick up his form and maintain some level of consistency. At United this rarely happened, although I can vaguely remember a run of games in his United career where he scored something like six goals, probably while one of our other strikers was injured. It'll be interesting to see how quickly Forlan regains his form after recovering from a longterm injury and missing out on several games. Again, I simply don't believe that his poor form for us can be pinned down to the fact that he comes from Uruguay. You're jumping to conclusions, mate. I don't see why its so hard to understand....three is hardly a significant number. There are other South Americans who have done quite well in the Premiership...they probably couldn't have gone unbeaten without Gilberto and Edu. Jordi Cruyff wasn't exactly a hit at United. He wasn't signed for a whole load of money (something like 1m nine years ago), but what matters here is that if you're going to base future signings on nationality, you're going to end up missing out on a lot of quality players who could contribute to the team. Sorry, thats what I meant to ask... Finally... He could initially start off as cover for either Rooney or Scholes depending on who is injured. Eventually, we could play him as a central midfielder on a regular basis once Keano retires. The DM position is not new to him, as that was his position when he arrived at Sevilla. I'm pretty sure Essien would like to play on a regular basis. Just because he claims to be a United fan doesn't mean he'll be a better player for us. In fact, there are rumours that Baptista is a closet United fan, but I haven't heard him say that so...well just a little titbit of info I guess. I don't think Essien would be happy being on the bench too often either. Anyway, I don't think Baptista would end up being a second-string player once he establishes himself. He has only been a forward for two years, I think. And Ronaldo was a forward for Sporting, but Fergie moved him out to the wing. IIRC, Heinze was a CB for PSG and not a leftback, but I'm not too sure about this one. I don't think Baptista would have any trouble playing in a midfield role. Yeah, Essien probably would fit in well, although I'm not quite sure he would do so perfectly. Essien would be alright as a backup for CB if we had an injury/suspension crisis, but not as his longterm position. I simply don't see any logic behind assuming that SAmerican strikers and midfielders will flop at United simply because of the fact that they are SAmerican. You know, I bet if it wasn't for Heinze, you'd probably make the generalization even broader and say that all South American players would be misfits at United. I don't know how old you are, but prejudice based on where someone comes from can be a pretty bad thing. Anyway, we'll leave the S. American argument behind because I really don't see any logic behind it... Just some arguments supporting Baptista over Essien. I think Essien may have shown good consistency for Lyon, and I don't doubt that he is a quality player but the French Ligue isn't exactly the toughest league in the world. On the other hand, Baptista has been excellent for Sevilla for two seasons now, playing in a league of a higher standard. I also think that Baptista would be an even bigger goalscoring threat from midfield than Essien would be. Essien does score a lot of goals, but Baptista scored a helluva lot of goals while he was playing as a DM, and that was part of the reason why Sevilla decided to move him to playing as a forward. I think in terms of physique, both players are very well built and they have the physical strength to be very intimidating midfield generals. But I think if you had to compare them, Baptista narrowly outdoes Essien in terms of physical strength.
There are different sorts of players who can adapt to different systems. Riquelme, for instance, would almost certainly be a bust in England. There is no less English style player I can think of. Mascherano, however, or Lucho Gonzalez, would do splendidly. As would Chelito Delgado and probably Tevez, whose game is pretty similar to Rooney in that he hardly shies away from contact. Edu played pretty well for Arsenal. Juan Pablo Angel is good when healthy. Certianly Arsenal weren't complaining about Gilberto. And lest we forget, Juninho Paulista made himself into one of the most popular players in England during his first successful spells at Boro. Hell, even the much maligned Crespo scored more than every other game in the EPL despite being admittedly unhappy in England. Veron was destined to fail at United because his position was occupied by Keane. Kleberson just isn't that good and Forlan - well.......can't explain that one. I would guess that it had a lot to do with not enough playing time and a loss in confidence. Watch Kezman be the Pichichi with Atletico, btw. In short, "he comes from South America" is a bad argument, especially given the paucity of evidence to back it up. It all depends on the player. Gabriel "Mr. Elbows" Heinze has been very good for United. Had you bought Walter Samuel instead, you'd probably be arguing that all South Americans can't make it in England, even though Samuel's failure would have been the result of nothing more than Samuel's inability to play football at an elite level.
Yeah, it is kinda getting a little annoying...sorry. But hopefully we'll move away from this "All South American midfielders and forwards suck at Man U" argument and start discussing whether Essien or Baptista would be the more effective option. After all, thats what this thread is supposed to be about.
Thanks for the insight, nice...Tino Asprilla was pretty good for Newcastle too methinks. If he had a little more time there I'm sure he would have done well in the Premiership.
LOL... There are many variables involved and each case has to be taken separately. But overall, the different style of play in the Premiership, different strategies and tactics, inability or unwillingness of Fergie to try to adjust his team's style of play to use the best qualitites of his players (particularly in the case of Veron), giving players the best chance to succeed, communication problems on the field... Lots of different issues, some of which were more significant, some - less. But so far the biggest busts in MU lately under SAF, unfortunately, all were attacking SA players.
I'm really interested to know your opinion about Ronaldinho too. And as far as the players you mentioned - well, Edu was ok, but he was not a star by any stretch of the imagination. Angel is good, but does he really belong to the "star" category? Gilberto is a fine player, but none of them really exceeded any expectations. Granted, they didn't turn out to be busts, but then again, there were not a lot of expectations with them Was it that obvious with Veron? You really think Fergie did not think about it? I mean $40 mln. is not pocket change for most people that do not have the last name ending with "ovich". Kleberson was good enough to start in the final of the World Cup for the winning team. And MU spent enough money on him. Why? If they knew he wasn't that good. And if you think Forlan's troubles were because of the playing time, do you think Baptista would get a lot of it, considering MU has 5 other forwards? I've given a bunch of other reasons. As I said, you gotta be very careful when your success rate is 0%. And if there is a chance to get another player that could help your team and may be a better fit in the long run, you really really need to think about the deal long and hard. And pick Essien. That's a mute point, since I've said at least twice in this thread that I would welcome any good South American defenders or goalkeeper without any problems. In fact, I would hope we could get someone like Gabriel Milito. And I am actually confident that Samuel would've had better success in the Premiership rather than La Liga. But that's another topic.