I can't be sure the Sky Sports graphic showed the same names (talking of reliability of websites being linked, I should add that, but it seems legit because the top places do tally with what I noticed), but here is a link showing the top 10 placings (though 14 partnerships, considering joint placings) apparently for team-mates setting each other up for Premier League goals: https://www.givemesport.com/1609141...t-goal-partnerships-in-premier-league-history It does say Transfermarkt and OPTA as the sources so I do have some doubts about whether all seasons are factored in (I'd have assumed Sky had it correct though, but just don't really recall the full list shown and didn't pay full attention to it at the time and/or it was flashed up too quickly). The fact Cantona-Giggs and Sheringham-Anderton is there suggests it should go pretty far back though (and I'm fairly sure those partnerships weren't above the ones in joint 2nd on the Sky list either): So to type in here what is shown on the link (the totals not the write-ups): Lampard and Drogba - 36 goals Henry and Pires, & Silva and Aguero - 29 goals Son and Kane - 28 goals (after the West Ham game it seems to suggest) Sheringham and Anderton - 27 goals McManaman and Fowler, Henry and Ljungberg & Walcott and Van Persie - 24 goals Kane and Eriksen - 23 goals Solano and Shearer - 22 goals Kane and Alli - 21 goals Giggs and Cantona, Rooney and C.Ronaldo, & Giroud and Ozil - 20 goals
I have a couple problem with this: 1. I have absolutely no doubt that if Messi was used as a false 9 throughout the past 10 years, he would go down as the single best no.9, even as a false one, at least at the club level, in history. He is simply that good. He would break even more scoring record that he already has. However, the fact is, he has played more minutes as the right-forward, it is his most associated position, and therefore, it should be the position he's eligible for. 2. Just because he's been at his most prolific as a false 9, I'm not 100% sure if it truly was his best role. In my opinion, 2014-15 was peak Messi, and he did it as RF. He is so technically complete, a role that allows him to use all of his prowess is perhaps better suited.
This link from February 2018 on the Premier League website (they all have assist data of course for individuals at least, and OPTA might have been the source of it even?) seems to back things up: https://www.premierleague.com/news/623528 As you can see it's noted that Aguero and Silva was next with 22 at that point (Aguero scoring 15 and Silva 7). EDIT - So potentially there are different figures between sources (or an erroneous omission or two) for Walcott and Van Persie, and maybe Solano and Shearer too even if because it wasn't a current partnership like Silva and Aguero it might just not have been mentioned (because top 5 wasn't achievable unless they un-retired!).
Sorry if that's partially off topic though! It'd possibly be more relevant on the Premier League imports thread (even if a decent number of the players were English)! Interesting to see anyway maybe, and relevant for Henry for example.
The first link did look somewhat questionable I originally thought that maybe theyd calculated it using stricter rules(eg final pass before goal excluding deflections,secondary assists etc) The Ajax website link The conundrum here is they had van basten with a higher assists per game ratio for ajax then bergkamp to These "statsbunker websites" as you refer to them are more likely to get bergkamps assists correct or van bastens? The further you go back the less accurate the data becomes How does the second striker/midfielder record less assists as the centre forward? Rivaldo or kluivert? Messi or etoo? Bergkamp or wright? Rooney or van persie? The Suarez data is corroborated by this 151- Between 2007 and 2011, Luis Suarez scored (91) or assisted (60) 151 goals in 139 Eredivisie games. Fulcrum.— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) July 22, 2013 https://tomkinstimes.com/2012/03/luis-suarez-9-or-10/ And the van basten data is corroborated by transfermarket Do you have any specific examples as to why you view that 2nd link as being unreliable
"Chemistry" is always something a little tricky to sort out anyway. Taking the Arsenal example. I don't think any Arsenal fan would consider the Henry-Ljungberg partnership to be a particularly special one despite it being in the top 5 as per the graph above. I'd argue that Ljungberg has more iconic moments with Bergkamp than with Henry. Henry numbers are high because as the tip of the spear, he generally gets on the end of the final pass or is the final pass himself. What's important to note about Henry's assists is that many of his assists were the result of either Arsenal, as a team, breaking down the opponents defense (something Bergkamp and Pires were usually integral to) or Henry breaking down a defense with a good run or a good dribble. However, he wasn't really known for actual defense-splitting passes even though he was perfectly capable of them from time to time. The Arsenal team of 01-05 was heavily lopsided towards the left. Most of the creativity came down that flank. Ashley Cole and Patrick Vieira don't appear on stats, but they were key figures to that side of the field, along with Pires and Henry.
People associate Messi as a false nine more than a winger. He popularised and defined the role in the modern era. 2008-12 Messi was the best version of Messi and Pep unleashed his potential as a hungry goal scoring dribbling monster in that role because false 9 is basically an advanced playmaker with goalscoring prowess something Messi is clearly great at. Yes, he’s a complete attacker, but he did greater things as a CF even though he played more minutes as a winger. I don’t see 2014-15 season as being his best season because Messi was more dangerous during his four seasons spent under Guardiola era as a dribbling god, playmaker and goalscorer. Playmaking wise, Messi was still fantastic during 2008-12 era, but that aspect of his became even greater when he became more experienced and when he played more deeper. But I understand why FIFA put him in the category of right winger because he
You seem to give a lot of emphasis on Ballon d’Or placement. I’m not saying that you are right or wrong, but I just find it interesting. Roberto Carlos always did much better than Cafu in these rankings, but nowadays Cafu is universally considered the superior fullback. One of the most bizarre Ballon d’Or victories ever was Keegan in 1978. I can understand his victory in 1979, he lead Hamburg to Bundesliga glory and was their top scorer. 1978? Dalglish should have won that one. He was top scorer for Liverpool who won the European Cup, and he even scored the winning goal in the final.
Putting zidane there ahead of platini, zico,ads and especially Pele,Maradona is just nonsense . The recency bias is the problem. Btw its a 3-4-3 they said the formation. So ramos can't get selected with beckenbaeur. R9 will also make over Cruyff i think because of the guys voting mostly grew up with R9 and most of the people don't have an idea about how good Cruyfff was as a player
True, but no one should be surprised. Just google "top 10 player of all time" and see how high Zidane is. Now add in his managerial career, and I wouldn't be surprised if he pips it. I would still like to believe the people doing this thing has a bit more sense than that.
Nah you can choose any two out of 20 offensive mids nominated there. Where did you get that they put Pele and Maradona in separate group? I also think they wanted Pele , Maradona, Messi, Cristiano and Cruyff all to be there . Thats why they set up the formation like that. But the inflated image of zidane,R9 to people who'll vote there is a huge issue too. Also, as i mentioned club and country bias, favouritism is another issue. Which is why i wasn't excited when they announced to make this xi. For example look at this guy (a madrid based guy). He's prolly one of the journalist voting there . Look at his voted xi ( looks almost like a madrid xi) : I just finished voting. Here's my team (I would've voted Alves but he wasn't nominated somehow):Casillas; Cafu, Beckenbauer, Marcelo; Redondo, Xavi, Di Stefano, Maradona; Messi, Cristiano, Ronaldo— Kiyan Sobhani (@KiyanSo) October 19, 2020
I’m not a fan of the Argentinian newspaper of Ole, but they stated: “An interpretation: France Football placed Maradona and Pelé in different groups so that they do not compete with each other and both end up elected in the ideal team.” Whether their info is correct I don’t know, but I personally believe France Football made and categorized their list in bad faith, producing it in a way that favors the political choices. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ol...aradona-redondo-bola-oro_0_2n_h5FMjZ.amp.html
Normally I really don't, seriously, but because they name it "Ballon d'Or Dream Team" I think having a glance on their own vote is helpful. They didn't name it "all-time team" or something like that. Cafu was funnily seen as the weak link before the 1998 World Cup, as various journalists as Vickery have noticed. He proved otherwise but Carlos outshine him with his spectacular style. Cafu got more highly rated when he was nearing the end of his career. Both his BdO nominations came when he over 31.5 years old. His first ESM selection came when he was almost 30, the other four past that age. I wouldn't be sure he wins that internet vote over Lahm. Rensenbrink of course... Performed very well at all competitions he entered, and destroyed Liverpool in the two head to head games, too (on which basis Blokhin won his vote in 1975).
I didn't think the data on the Ajax website had come from a Statsbunker site or something, but just suspect it is not always complete or maybe it's a 'work in progress' kind of thing. I remember I looked up Michael Laudrup's assist tally on there I think for 97/98, which was a good tally (and perhaps it is correct therefore, not under-stated although I don't know), but when I tallied up the assists for the whole team it looked to me like data was probably going to be missing for some players or indeed under-stated. I think @PuckVanHeel might have a better idea about it anyway. I should have said Puck also that I understand/agree about what you said about Bergkamp's role becoming a deeper lying one later in his Arsenal career - I think you idea does tally with what @poetgooner has now said too. His assist tally was still good to the end anyway, but yeah early in his Arsenal career he was more like a typical support striker, although of course dropping deep at times from were he could release Wright, Anelka, Overmars etc directly for goals indeed. Henry did miss some chances Bergkamp gave him I know/remember, but whether it'd be more than would be expected I'm not sure. I guess despite his pace Henry wasn't necessarily the stereotypical striker who'd race onto through balls and finish clinically, but more one who liked to get involved on the ball himself before finding the net - some of the Pires to Henry assists were certainly balls to release him and exploit his pace, that Henry did make full use of though.
True . I actually watched him when i started watching football. And that 2006 WC performance actually help him boost his image. Like most of these people i used to keep him even within top 5 few years ago. Later, i actually started looking deeper into the career of these players and realized he's a great player, but if you put him anything like top 5 , its just overrating him. He's more of a top 11-15 footballer arguably
First of all, anyone not voting Pele should not be taken seriously. Secondly, it's really not shock horror that they set it up to favor some players. I never expected anything less, and I don't think anyone else did either.
You should indeed see it more like "they have at least this number". It is not complete for every player. Regardless, maybe they've seen him playing as CF for the national team in a few games, but he should be in the other category (in which, for stated reasons, he can also hold his own against Baggio etc. imho). Anyway, I'll think about possible omissions and wrong inclusions. Someone like Hamrin for example, or Gento perhaps (with Giggs also in - by and large a similar career profile and similar 'career gaps'), and the aforementioned Hazard/Laudrup. I think Robben is a sensible pick, even though not necessarily 'better' as Hamrin, after all he has between the age of 25 and 35 (about) as many WC selections as Muller/KHR in their entire career (among many other, more convincing, things). Had he played his full career there...(in particular 2004-05 and 2008-09 I'd think)... and with fewer injuries...
Not to disagree (and given my user name includes my year of birth you can see I wasn't old enough to have been aware in real time lol), but I think one factor that helped Keegan apparently is that it was a calendar year award and in late 1978 he really started to pick up form (the Kicker website has the game ratings for each game week, that can be checked to verify I'm not stating that wrong but I think @Gregoriak has said this anyway too). Dalglish meanwhile perhaps didn't have such a great start to 78/79, but finished in great form towards the end of that season - not that his earlier 1978 form and especially the European Cup games would be irrelevant. Dalglish did get awarded IOC Player of the Year in Europe for season 1977/78, although Keegan was 2nd actually so maybe an indication his second half of 77/78 form (first half of calendar year 1978) was an improvement on what I know was a slow start (that didn't help him in the 1977 Ballon d'Or probably, given he had had a notable game in the 1977 European Cup Final on the biggest stage himself so had that going for him that year). Kicker would again show ratings for him for that season. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/h...yer-short-lists.2027972/page-43#post-36234306
Yeah, maybe Gento and Hamrin are to some extent examples of the winger equivalent of Cafu and suchlike, whereby their historical standing in their position outstrips the yearly recognition in annual voting. Given they look a lot at their own Ballon d'Or placings maybe that is consistent with that (certainly if favouring peak and maximum placings). Although there is no Shevchenko among the centre forwards and no Nedved among either left forwards (it's a stretch maybe but might fit his attacking left midfield role best, and Beckham is among right forwards/wingers anyway) or attacking midfielders (tough pool to get into though, and mostly containing Ballon d'Or winners or extras like Pele who can't be omitted), so like you said they haven't necessarily used the Ballon d'Or placings as the be all and end all I don't think.
Hamrin had five years where he received votes, including a fourth place finish in 1958 (a tournament year, I know). I'll think about it and come back.
Yeah, it's true but of course Figo won it, Beckham was close to the top and suchlike. Maybe he's in the same ballpark as Robben or Giggs (who is among the left winger options, while Rensenbrink isn't despite good Ballon d'Or placings, although played more of a central/roaming role for his club anyway) for best Ballon d'Or placings (and overall placings) but I haven't checked all the results right now to remind myself exactly how it was for each of those players....
Extras like pele who can't be omitted? Where do you put Pele then? He was never a CF . Neither you can play him on wings. Its mostly because the formation/setup in which teams used to play in older eras. Used wingers less . And the best player in most of the teams had something of a free role behind one/two of the most advanced player on the team. Btw, Pele said in an interview that he was the third most advanced player in his team. He used to come from behind something like that. If zico, maradona, baggio,puskas,kubala etc are placed on offensive mid category i don't see the problem with Pele being put there as most of these players nearly operated in similiar areas on the field
Sorry, I confused you I think. I meant he wasn't eligible for Ballon d'Or (European Player of the Year) voting in his time, so he's an 'extra' name that doesn't appear in Ballon d'Or results but that is sure to be included in the pool of names. I agree with you about his positioning (but would probably put him as a forward if we were talking about a 4-4-2 or 4-2-4 system, rather than midfielder). Well, I don't agree they used wingers less to be honest I should clarify. I think he played in support of one striker and two wingers in the main (which Zico did too at Flamengo, but perhaps from more clearly behind the striker).
I actually saw some guy having a conversation with him (this journalist) in reply sections regarding his selection. He (journalist) replied to that guy with something like Pele was a CF , then Casillas had the best period as gk ever , R9 > Cruyff at peak , Redondo is something like most technically gifted CM ever. (So you get the idea what the extent/domain of his football knowledge actually is like . And ,these are the types of guys that gets the privilige to vote btw ) Here you can see it : Btw , in the subsequent replies of the thread , i saw the guy asking him his best players of all times in order. Seems like he rated ADS the best ever followed by Maradona , pele .
Oh i get it. Yeah his positon was same as Zico . And that forward thing is actually applicable for most of the guys there tbh . By strict midfielder i understand CMs mostly. Most the no 10s/ss are generally of attackers than midfielders For example someone like Zidane, iniesta ,gullit in that list is less forward than the likes of Pele, Maradona, Zico ,Baggio,Kubala ,ADS ,Puskas imo. They are not putting the latter as strict midfielder /CMs , and you can't put them as CF/wingers, so i think its okay to put them there .