Think there is also a chance Rep, Hazard or Robben will appear there among the wingers. Wouldn't be surprised to see Rep popping up as HM or better. Chances are high they will include at least one Belgian player (after all, since mid 1960s the Elo has been at the same level as Uruguay). Maybe at least one Danish player as well, I bet Laudrup. As winger and representative of three iconic teams. There are 10 center forward spots, and I don't see them ignoring El Salvador or the Swan of Utrecht there. Maybe I'm wrong though. After all Frenchmen Wenger has said often some nice things and Vieira had already a mention. But it was during games where his perfectionist instincts shone for all to see. “An exceptional brain,” said Wenger. “You ask any player of Arsenal Football Club who is your top player? They always say Dennis Bergkamp.” https://theathletic.com/2004614/2020/08/27/premier-league-60-dennis-bergkamp-arsenal Michael Johnson’s playing career spanned nearly two decades, as he amassed more than 500 appearances. The former Notts County, Birmingham and Derby defender reveals to us his ideal footballer based on those he played with and against… [...] Oh, this guy would take up positions that would twist you up. He knew where you were and he didn’t even have to look – just raw, football intelligence of knowing where to pull you into certain areas that you don’t really want to go into. There were lots of times when he’d take you into an area and you’re thinking, “If I go there, I leave the space in behind but if I stay where I am and he gets the ball, he’ll kill me with his feet.” Honestly, that Invincibles year (2003-04), I remember clearly being on the receiving end of drubbings from Arsenal. He was unplayable.
To my surprise you was right about this. Even though I'd say as center forward he shouldn't be anywhere close the top 10, while for the 20 AM - and honorable mentions - he makes sense (based on their own BdO voting and yearly nominations, too). And I was wrong about Laudrup, Hazard etc. The main problem is there are really too few places. IMO they could have expanded this to 20 each as well; in particular the center forwards are at least as stacked as the 'attacking midfielders'.
Yeah, in some ways it might seem more satisfactory expanding to 20, or reducing to 5 to avoid the borderline decisions but I suppose 10 is a nice round number and goes well with the presentation. If people aren't allowed a free vote (public or the ones doing the official choices) then some controversial/disappointing omissions will happen in some people's opinions. You alluded before to matching things up with their Ballon d'Or results, but I know you also noticed some deviation from that in some cases. Even narrowing to 5 would give some hard decisions anyway. I could come up with 3 options that probably can't be left out, 2 more I'd put in myself and 2 alternatives I wouldn't argue with for a consensus pool of 5, and that could go in instead of the 2 I added, as follows (changing a few positions and including both Bozsik and Ocwirk to reflect the Ballon d'Or period in general but with some consideration perhaps of the years between the 1950 World Cup and first Ballon d'Or/European Cup year - alternatively I might have put Liedholm and Schiaffino in but possibly there is the same question about whether they'd be past their very best by 1956 and additionally although they played as wing-halves well apparently in some games or spells it'd be with a second centre back or deep midfielder behind I think and they were best regarded as inside forwards or more attacking midfielders anyway)... (in alphabetical order) Goalkeeper: 'Automatic': Banks, P.Schmeichel, Yashin. 'My options': G.Buffon, Shilton. 'Alternatives I'd not argue with': Dasaev, Zoff. Right back: 'Automatic': Cafu, Carlos Alberto, Djalma Santos. 'My options': Amoros, Jorginho. 'Alternatives I'd not argue with': Vogts, Zanetti. Centre back: 'Automatic': F.Baresi, Krol, Scirea: 'My options': Figueroa, Nesta. 'Alternatives I'd not argue with': Cannavaro, Thuram. Left back: 'Automatic': Facchetti, Nilton Santos, P.Maldini. 'My options': Breitner, Lizarazu. 'Alternatives I'd not argue with': Brehme, Roberto Carlos. Wing-halves/DMs: 'Automatic': Beckenbauer, Bozsik, Matthaus, B.Moore, Neeskens, Rijkaard: 'My options': Edwards, Redondo, Tigana, Vieira: 'Alternatives I'd not argue with: Masopust, Ocwirk, Sammer, Vasovic. Inside forwards/AMs: 'Automatic': Cruyff, Di Stefano, Maradona, Pele, Platini, Zidane. 'My options': R.Baggio, B.Charlton, M.Laudrup, Zico. 'Alternatives I'd not argue with': Bergkamp, Dalglish, Gullit, Rivera. Right forward: 'Automatic': Garrincha, Figo, Messi. 'My options': Matthews, K-H.Rummenigge. 'Alternatives I'd not argue with': Jairzinho, Kopa. Centre forward: 'Automatic': Eusebio, Ronaldo, Van Basten. 'My options': G.Muller, Puskas (didn't put in automatic as based on Ballon d'Or period and hard to omit the other 3 balancing my view with consensus perhaps...while I put him as centre forward because that's more like how it was later in his career indeed). 'Alternatives I'd not argue with': Henry, Romario. Left forward: 'Automatic': Best, Ronaldinho, C.Ronaldo. 'My options': Dzajic, Finney. 'Alternatives I'd not argue with': Giggs, Rivelino.
Hmm, not hugely, but I am not (already was not) convinced he'd be in 5 selections I might make and then considering the legendary status of various other options he didn't seem the most likely to get in a concensus 5 even though he could be and sometimes/often is considered a close alternative. I'm not sure whether you are coming slightly in the other direction though (originally I remember you did prefer others for a Dutch XI - proper right backs I mean not a Gullit or Rijkaard or something) while I could indeed consider if anything moving him 'down the charts' slightly in any general estimation.... I thought I'd slot Cruyff, Dalglish, Bergkamp into the 'inside forward' category and leave mainly conventional centre-forwards (Eusebio can fit even if he was originally an inside forward in essence and didn't always play on the last defender of course but often liked to come and get the ball deeper) for the number 9 slot. I can kind of see how France Football put them as centre-forwards though, as 'false 9' kind of options...which Cruyff did certainly play at his prime. Bergkamp did sometimes play as the main central attacker for the NT of course, but I wouldn't say it was his best role as such or that his best attributes suited that role so well overall.
Bergkamps highest ballon dor position(1992) came about when he was playing as a CF Henry's areas of influence in his prime point towards him being more of the creative hub of his team Thierry Henry, Arsenal 2003-04*.Shot monster.Assist monster.Dribble monster.Curl monster.* Less the six missing games. pic.twitter.com/288Y8H4iRD— StatsBomb (@StatsBomb) June 1, 2020 Small tangent but the chemistry between Henry and Bergkamp was a tad overstated 12 - Dennis Bergkamp provided more assists for Ian Wright in the Premier League than he did for any other player. Understanding.— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) June 20, 2015 Bergkamp played only 3 seasons with Ian wright(8 with Thierry Henry)
The stats for combination Premier League goals between two players were shown yesterday during Tottenham vs West Ham (because of the number of times Kane and Son have set each other up for goals, even before another couple were added during that game). So it's not for one player assisting another, but for assist-goal combinations between the two players both ways, but I remember Drogba+Lampard was top, and I think it was Henry+Pires next (unless Kane+Son has now overtaken them). I don't remember the full list but there was a bit of a gap at the top. Henry+Bergkamp wasn't there, so I guess the total of goals they combined for was less than 20 in total probably (which would make sense as I'd expect more Bergkamp to Henry than vice versa, although I can vaguely recall some Henry to Bergkamp examples too I think). They obviously combined during the build-up to other goals, scored by other players though - Ashley Cole vs Villa away in 04/05 (with the great Bergkamp pass, after Henry's skills and pass to him) or Pires vs Leeds away in 01/02 (Henry dummying Bergkamp's pass so it went back to Pires) are coming to mind (if I got the seasons and details correct!). Like you say the longer two players play in the same team the more chance they'd have to be near the top of such a list. Kane and Son have played for Tottenham together a while now but it seems like they've gone into overdrive for setting each other up for goals lately (with more Kane to Son, while I could be wrong but would think it could have been more Son to Kane overall before this season).
I have now also seen the France Football article in the magazine. Unfortunately they don't give alternatives this time, but there is one interesting trivia: of all listed attackers Stanley Matthews happens to have the lowest amount of goals, roughly 80 in his long career. What carlito is stating is becoming, sorry to say so, a bit tiresome (and what he says in his first sentence, about playing as CF in 1992, is again wrong). Henry has repeatedly said (2nd source without paywall) - when he was playing and later - there was a great connection. It didn't always came to a direct assist, but often to the decisive pass before the assist. That he directly assisted Wright more often is not surprising, simply because of dropping deeper at a more advanced age. If you look at the pass networks, he was then with Wright the 2nd (or 3rd) most advanced player. Later on he was regularly behind (even if fractionally) Pires and Ljungberg in the network. He launched the dynamic runners ahead of him, unlocked packed defenses (Pires the other player who did that), and in the counter punch by the opponent he was positionally strong. It's also about seeing it a few moves ahead. edit: see also these articles on the perception of the partnership: https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...7e4b00319-1000--bergkamp-offers-arsenal-hope/ https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...f9ffc2cc-1000--lucio-wary-of-bergkamp-threat/ https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...31ef57a-1000--bergkamp-still-the-arsenal-ace/ The difference in average pass position between Henry and his 'partner' can be ~20-30 metres against the same opponent. While with Wright he was literally more of a second striker. See for example also what happens here (position of receiving the pass, even though defensively not really switching off) and here. Those OPTA yearbooks from 1998 to 2002 do show he attempted 3, even 4 tackles per game & 90 minutes, however. For fun, here a comparison with a midfielder even though it's a different team of course: Random chart idea on Gini Wijnaldum. Average pass locations by game, colour = pass%. This season he consistently played on the left of the three, all his previous Liverpool seasons he mixed it up on both sides. Games in which he deviated most from "normal" labelled: pic.twitter.com/gNXknyfHBw— James Yorke (@jair1970) May 21, 2020
Henry had a tendency to go to the left obviously and had thanks to that also so many assists in 2002-03. He also played his best major tournament that way in 2000, and of course often in the years before Arsenal, and after for Barcelona from the left. In a league when the tackles and fouls per game were 50-70% higher (or so) as it is now, it is a smart tactic. He'd be a strong pick as CF too.
I think this is a pretty accurate depiction of bergkamp in his Ajax role He had also here considerably more goals than assists(usually an indication of playing in a more goal orientated role) Whatever Henry says the data suggests DB10 was not directly assisting TH14 as much you would expect from 2 players with a telepathic understanding of eachother movements I said it was overstated(not non existent) The only thing tiresome is you forcing your pro dutch agenda on any given conversation
You started here with this subject or 'agenda', not me, a subject where you are wrong. Not by any stretch a center forward in 1992. End of. This is the last thing I say about this, and since you always make a false comment in your first sentence, I'll put you now on ignore. Seriously.
What will be the final xi do you guys think? Some are obvious like messi ronaldo getting selected. Maldini Beckenbaeur. Think RB will be cafu (he's more well known and popular to the people actually voting there.) Most of these guys are filled with recency bias, favouritism etc so i think it will affect the selection. Zidane shouldn't make in within the two AMs ideally, R9 shouldn’t be put there instead of Cruyff but because of the thing i said something like that can happen. Club based bias also there. For example, Madrid based journalists might go with club legends Di stefano , casillas as keeper etc It'll be interesting to see how it affects the final voting
What I think will happen: CR7 - R9 - Messi Pele - Zidane Xavi Maldini - Ramos - Beckenbauer - Cafu Neuer I believe that younger voters will dominate the poll, hence the inclusion of R9, Zidane, Xavi and Ramos. Zidane over Maradona would be wrong but that is what I think will happen. Likewise R9 over Cruyff. Neuer will win the GK position because of recency bias but I won’t have anything against his inclusion.
I could be wrong, but I think Pelé and Maradona were placed in separate groups in order to not compete against each other. Zidane is in Pelé’s group while Di Stéfano is in Maradona’s. And they placed Cruijff in the category of center-forward in order to not compete with the others.
The stark numbers of his career statistics belie that artistry – 122 goals and 11 assists with Ajax (including Europe and Cup play) https://www.footballhistory.org/player/dennis-bergkamp.html Maybe this is a conservative calculation using a stricter criteria for assists but Bergkamp at Ajax was defintely scoring well over 5× as many as he assisted 123 goals+16 assists in 256 appearances according to this verifiable source https://www.afc-ajax.info/en/soccer-player/Dennis-Bergkamp#seasons a second striker(or even midfielder)with 16 assists in 250+ matches? The is no precedent for this in the history of the game Luis Suarez had 66 assists in 161 matches for ajax https://www.afc-ajax.info/en/soccer-player/Luis-Suarez Even van basten assisted at a higher rate for ajax than DB10 and no one ever disputed he was a CF https://www.afc-ajax.info/en/soccer-player/Marco-van-Basten Cruyff had 139 assists in 454 appearances for Ajax https://www.afc-ajax.info/en/soccer-player/Johan-Cruijff @Trachta10 where did you get your wild estimates of 300-350 assists for Cruyff? Or you can look to ziyech for a contemporary example of how a midfielder assist totals should look like Whatever DB10s staring position he was the goalscorer/striker of his team(ajax) Specifically his last 3 seasons there
Obviously, I'm perfectly aware of this fact seeing as I watched live almost all of his games for Arsenal. The reason it is weird to me is that he was obviously a central player drifting wide, and not a wide playing cutting inside, like a CR7.
I feel Xavi deserve to be in the list, but I do agree that Zidane, R9, Ramos or Neuer doesn’t deserve to be.
I don’t understand about Henry being a winger. It’s a role he struggled with and Wenger was the one who moulded him into the striker we know. Remember when Henry joined Arsenal and everyone was questioning his ability considering he was a failure at Juventus where he played on the flanks? Now classifying Messi is a difficult thing. His best position is as a false nine and is considered the best exponent of the position since Johan Cruyff. I would place him in the CF role more than a right winger even though he started playing on the flanks once again since Suarez joined Barca. But his best years where as a CF and had the best goalscoring season in a calender year.
I think Lahm will be voted above Cafu because of fanbases, Buffon will be voted in as goalkeeper. It will be big nations bias all over the place as can be expected with a adidas sponsored vote. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meilleurs_footballeurs_européens_1954-2004 Cafu possibly doesn't age as well these days (and his regard received a massive bump at the very end of his career anyway). He received two BdO votes in 2002, after lifting the world cup as captain. In all other years not and only nominated in 2001. In ESM he has this pattern (only one inclusion at the business end). I remember ariaga mentioning this too. https://www.erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Cafu
The first link is even badly wrong on Arsenal assists mate to be honest. It says 33 in all competitions. The Premier League records show 94 in the Premier League alone (narrow definition): https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/goal_assist?se=363 I did use that Ajax website for some players too myself, but the more I looked at it the more I think it is incomplete and unreliable for the assists (not a definitive guide for every player for every year - maybe more like a record of what they have verified but not complete?) - the assists totals compared to goals totals (for the whole squad combined) seem much too low, given ordinarily a goal will have an assister (not always of course, so with narrow definition and with one assister maximum credited then the assists total will always be less than 100% of the goals total over the whole squad).
If websites don't have the full data, I really wish they wouldn't pretend they did! Maybe the error in that article was even based on having 'found' incomplete data on one of these Statsbunker type sites?
Yes I agree 100%. That 'wide playing cutting inside' only applies to his pre-peak and post-peak years (before the age of 23 and after 30).
Curiously the only time I saw a 'latest results' graphic was for right backs and Cafu was actually (at that point, quite a few days ago now) well ahead of everyone else with over 50% of the vote. He did get the most votes in the World Soccer poll of journalists etc for All-Time XI right back too, not so long ago. I don't know if it's a case of never really making people think he was one of the top 5 stand-out players (over all positions) in any given year, but when it comes down to the question of top right backs he's more convincing. Can make sense I think. @Vegan10 Pele and Maradona are in the same category (attacking midfielder - inside forwards in the old terms according to the WM style formation), but two players can be selected in that category (and DMs/wing-halves in WM) so both can be voted for by the same person (in effect Pele as number 8 and Maradona as number 10 or vice versa). Zidane and Di Stefano are in there too, but there is no seperation between the right sided slot and left sided one so any two of those four can be selected together (but no more than that). @wm442433 seemed to think that the same AM can be selected twice though (I guess it's not intended to be allowed but maybe it is some kind of glitch or oversight by the designers of the voting system and software). Cruyff is in with the centre forwards yeah. I guess there could be a few differences between the team of the public vote on the website, and the 'experts' results. Probably with more modern players in the former yeah (especially if many votes come from outside France, increasing club bias etc).