I don't think I'll select a first XI. Maybe another B-squad. Finding appropriate numbers is hard! I thought Hazard and number 13 is a great fit, but realize now Ruud Gullit played with number 13 when he started his career at Haarlem (when the league was high in the coefficients btw). De Bruyne is obviously number 17. For number 23 some outfield players are an option, but not sure yet whether they are good enough. Number 19 is a historically correct choice, since he used that number in his first United season, with Tim Howard the number one shirt (who played one league game as second half substitute, round 26 against Portsmouth). Dries Mertens has played with number 13 too on a number of occasions, but again, not sure whether he goes in (perhaps/plausibly the B-squad). You see me back later!
I don't think it really helps lol, but checking what squad numbers I ended up allocating to the Benelux players I picked on that 'Top 250' (but for my purposes recently Top 500!) thread.... Overmars 17 Van Beveren 21 Rijkaard 6 Cruyff 14 Rep 19 R.De Boer 20 Piot 21 Hovenkamp 23 Seedorf 24 Hulshoff 25 W.Van de Kerkhof 16 Courtois 21 Franky van der Elst 24 R.Van de Kerkhof 7 Bergkamp 10 Hazard 11 Neeskens 4 De Bruyne 12 Gerets 2 R.Koeman 4 Davids 6 Van Tiggelen 3 Van Basten 9 Gullit 10 Moulijn 11 Pfaff 13 Krol 15 Van Hanegem 8 Van Nistelrooy 9 F.De Boer 3 Virgil van Dijk 6 Scifo 8 Preud'homme 1 Stam 5 Rensenbrink 11 Van der Sar 1 Robben 11 Israel 15 Suurbier 2 Sneijder 8 Van Aerle 12 Haan 16 Van Bronkhorst 23 Ceulemans 17 Albert 15 Grun 14 Wilkes 17 1 to 11 wasn't necessarily 1st XI players in each squad, although I did pretty much stick to numbers 1, 13 and 21 for goakeepers (in that order!). I didn't think too hard about iconic/usual numbers for all players, but some sprang to mind. Obviously I needed to fill the whole squad in considering all players I put in each squad too (incl. non-Benelux ones obviously)....
I looked at the Red Cafe link now, and yeah Van der Vaart could be an interesting option (and if you do a 'B' squad indeed then it gives an extra chance to make it in for players like him). Notable that he was so high in the Castrol stats rankings at that point in that season, although I can recall why in terms of his impact at Tottenham, including with the goals and assists of course but with good play in general. Castrol's World Cup marks out of 10 are perhaps questionable (Ronaldo in 2002 is right at the top of their all-time list if I remember correctly - not that I can definitely say that it shouldn't be like that for sure...but I guess it depends what value is assigned to each stat, and obviously no value judgements can be made in terms of each particular play), but that points based system seems more like what OPTA did for the Premier League too I think doesn't it? Anyway, I suppose if Bergkamp has number 8, then Gullit in number 10 is probably going to make sense isn't it? Even if it could be in question whether or not he'd be included as primarily a number 10 in terms of role, fitting in with the other selected players. For PSV, Milan, the Netherlands, he was famous often wearing 10 I think wasn't he?
Yeah, I could see how he could be in (he is the record scorer after all, and had some significant peaks for club/country), but I didn't accidentally forget him. I'd tend to pick Greaves ahead from what I know/saw, and Keegan was perhaps better too (he did rank higher in the Ballon d'Or on his own time of course, though that doesn't say everything) and might also have the more suitable versatility (perhaps better as an AM, while left wing cover isn't really necessary). In squad 2, Francis actually gives better options as true winger (on either side, especially the right though), and maybe I go with Sheringham as a link-up expert (who did show it very well at times for the NT) who was also a good finisher, although I could see that it might be argued that Rooney could be picked ahead of him. Everyone will have some variations in choice, so these are mine alone, and even then quite a few calls will be quite marginal for any individual anyway (as evident from the talk about right backs itself!).
On Ronaldo in 2002: of course it is insensitive to level of opposition, and understandably it gives a bonus to scoring goals (even if they are arguably an own goal, like the Costa Rica goal, with the attempt maybe not goal-bound). It's really difficult. How to balance national team vs club career; peak vs longevity. As you know 'CaJe' was someone I really liked, but he applied his range more at tournament level and league level than at continental competitions (in fairness, clubs didn't always put the priority there; in the same way 1980s Scottish players at Liverpool saw their commitment to the national team doubted). A good perspective/barrier to take is to look which players/attackers scored 30 or more European goals (oddly Nilis tops the red devils list with 37 goals). Every country (also England and Brazil) has only a select group of players past that marker. In alphabetical order: Bergkamp Cruijff Kluivert Huntelaar Lukaku Nilis Makaay Mertens Rensenbrink Robben Van Basten Van Himst Van Nistelrooij Van Persie Van der Kuijlen comes one short with 29, just as Kuijt and - strangely - recent Europa League final man of the match L. de Jong. Of the other currently active players Depay is the closest of the rest with 23 goals so far (of course De Bruyne etc. is a midfielder). Lukaku is now two goals beyond Van Himst and two goals behind Nilis. He'll overtake him obviously, currently aged 27 and 6 months. Mertens is 33 and 6 months, and looks unlikely to catch Van Himst now in terms of most EC/CL goals. Many have criticized Lukaku his unreliable first touch (similar to Haaland I'd think), but in fairness, if he is really in his game then not even Brazil or the other best teams in the world can stop him, even if they have the upper hand and are on the front foot - while simultaneously blessed with the sort of physique to withstand challenges. I'm edging to have within at least the B-team. Huntelaar despite his 50+ UEFA goals is very unlikely to make it, but at least his combined goals + assists is still a seasonal record since kicker started to record this in 1988 and he did have a remarkably good touch. Certainties for an A or B team (of this group) are Bergkamp, Cruijff, Rensenbrink, Robben, Van Basten and Van Himst but beyond that it's hard (BEL wins ground back among the goalkeepers, the full-backs and the 'number eights' I think). I suppose without all those unlucky injuries Van Persie is basically a certainty as well given variation in ability, the great goals, scoring against elite teams in multiple tournaments, and all the rest (I think he was one of the best Premier League players, when fit, between 2006 and 2014 - plausibly with the exception of 2007-08) but that might be my Feyenoord bias. Wasn't too far removed from the ideal type number nine. That's it for now, my next post will be my attempt for the professional era.
Remember how i said Cruyff is bit underrated and most of these guys voting have seen R9 growing up and it may distort the selection? Here are the forwards :
For the same reason as why our other cultural 'icons' are forgotten over time or understandably don't register (with the exceptions of the historic painters), or why it has become virtually impossible to win the Ballon d'Or (or something like that) since 'modern football' started. Since the Zidane and Ronaldo era. It's not down to how many World Cups, Champions Leagues you win (in your generation) or how many goals you score in that. He is also splitting votes with Van Basten (who finished 3rd in that position) This is not true for literally all the other nationalities in the list (all of these have writers or musicians of worldwide renown; for a start, we don't have a Proust or Goethe either). Germany, the old masters of selling yourself, had a few decades with diminished reputation but that is also gone now. The reputation has become strong, with now the EU as the instrument to dominate the continent, and use it as your life space and export market. As others have pointed out though, when he died he received 15 pages in Gazzetta dello Sport and 28 in L'Equipe. That was more than many of the domestic French heroes and actually also more than Di Stefano or Maradona (obviously because the story doesn't stop after playing professionally). The always good journalist (and former TV producer) Van Wessem said it this way, when it comes to only the painters passing the test of time: Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler "Uhmmm yes, with some exaggeration, my whole life is Johan. From the moment you're engrossed with football. I am of course from '60... In '67 we moved 50 years ago to Laren. The first you was confronted with was that you are within 20 minutes in the De Meer stadium. And I am from a family with three boys, so it was Ajax from that moment and Cruijff was within that the big figure. I was myself, never became, an Ajax supporter. [...] I was in Arles, the cafe of Van Gogh and we were philosophizing there 'who are really the famous compatriots of my lifetime'. Well yes, that is only one I can think of in my lifetime, that is Cruijff. And I check in the following day in a new hotel and I see suddenly him appearing on screen. 'Ah, he has finally received some prize from the FIFA or so'. I go to hotel room and then suddenly see something flowing by in the past tense. At that moment there is the realization 'damn, something has gone wrong'. I see my timeline with 'Cruijff has passed away'. On that moment I stared for three quarters outside and I see my whole life passing by. Only on that moment you realize what he has been, just by being there. And that goes back to 50 years before. My father - who was academic professor in cultural history - compared Michelangelo with Cruijff. That made such impression on all of us, you need to see him. You don't have to be an Ajax supporter, and you're free to see Amsterdam citizens as blahblah people. The strange was: if you grew up then, you find all these successes normal. Only later you realize it wasn't normal and it is not how the world works. Then later when he returned as coach you start watching like with an analytical eye: how genial is this man." "Well yes, I was watching for 45 minute to the outside, and then I was called by [cannot hear] and [cannot hear]. Whether I could say something in two minutes in French. And I said before I was live 'there is no greater Dutchman as Cruijff in his own field'. To which the presenter said 'you exaggerate now' - and he came up with names as Anne Frank, Rem Koolhaas and Van Halen. 'I really don't know honestly, or we are talking about Rembrandt and Van Gogh. But outside these two, there is no one else in their respective field. There is no politician, there is no scientist.. We don't have a De Gaulle, Camus or Curie. Our politicians have no drive and direction. There is no one with the overall mastery and significance in his field as Cruijff - outside of the painters.' When I stuck pertinently with this, they kind of agreed as well. Funny is also that I had briefly contact with the chief editor of L'Equipe, and he surprised me with the intention to make an ultimate special. So the next morning L'Equipe "Il etait le jeu" on the front page. A special of 28 pages. Just to indicate... not even the most liked French sportsmen receive that. The Gazzetta dello Sport came with 14 pages on him. Just to indicate how special this man was. Because that he was special in Netherlands and Catalonia, yes, that I understand. But that he also resonated in France, where they only started to see him in that famous game in Colombes I think, genial. For many years I worked with Platini, when I was at Eurosport and TF1, and Platini always said "there is only one, and that is Johan Cruijff". I found that baffling. Why should such Platini say that? He has no obligation or whatsoever. Gianni Rivera was the same: "he is the greatest overachiever and difference maker in the history of sport, all sports". Rivera also learned me something else, about another "phenomenon" as he called it, something I, my generation, didn't know much about, and that was Faas Wilkes. Wilkes was also a brilliant player for him, and because he placed Wilkes in the shadow of Cruijff, as a predecessor, I immediately understood as well Wilkes must have been a good player too. But Cruijff was above everyone for Rivera." Then he also says many other interesting things, like that as a coach he rated Brehme way higher as Maldini (who he found a limited player); he was an early admirer of Zidane, and evidence of Cruijff saying early "the C youth of Ajax looks really strong" (who later won the CL in '95). Also on "at a basic level there is a general agreement he added something to the sport", "Kees Jansma for example, who is 15 years older than me, is a huge admirer of Pelé" and "he didn't do as often as what Maradona did; flipping the ball with your chest over the head of Gentile." His club was PSV and his favorite player Van Beveren. He also says that the game was in 1974 about 7 frames faster as in 1970. Then it remained stable for a while, until 1996. It fastened significantly further in 1998 ("the Epo World Cup" it is joked at the table). Also interesting (since many compatriots saw this guy in the 1980s on the television screen; when there were only two domestic television channels): https://www.abendzeitung-muenchen.d...at-bei-bayern-das-fundament-gelegt-art-564372 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Reif Peculiarly, no English player makes it into the first three teams of the 140 voters...
He will be forgotten over time while Pele and Maradona will remain (and the German machine, thanks to their high fives with the authorities and eavesdropping of opponents in '74). Such is the strength of the geographic forces. Of all the cultural icons, only the painters will remain. This while there is a genuine argument about us actually inventing capitalism, for the good of the world. Sad Lowe is the confirmation I needed. Yeah, I might have chosen some different ones but I must admit I really don’t see much controversy here (maybe Matthaus? But I don’t know as much as I probably should about his career. Maybe Platini) Mind you, I suppose angry is just what people do. pic.twitter.com/Ky28CTVOYo— Sid Lowe (@sidlowe) December 14, 2020
This is the "grand jury selection" : 140 voters with amongst them some former ballon d'or winners, FF reporters in the world, maybe coaches etc., from the top of my head. The 11 voted by the internet users is a slightly different one : https://www.francefootball.fr/news/...ci-le-onze-de-legende-des-internautes/1205830 Same front-3 but there's Pirlo instead of Matthaüs, Buffon instead of Yachine and Zidane instead of Pelé.
Obviously, the team is completely lacking in any sort of tactical balance, which I absolutely hate to see. It also feels super weird to see a Ballon d'Or team that doesn't even use the award as selection criteria. Below would be my own team based my criteria on actual Ballon d'Or results without using the players already selected in their first three teams. Main goal was to create a tactically balanced side. Couldn't find a RB with a podium finish, so included Krol as he was perfectly capable of playing there. Wanted to include Keegan for winning it twice but couldn't quite find a place for him, and I think he's a pretty weak winner anyway. Wanted to include Stoichkov as well, as he's a favourite of mine. In the end, I went with Kopa as I wanted someone from the 50s and I think his playmaking brings better balance to the team, rather than an additional athletic goal scorer.
Zidane seems to be hugely overrated by Millennial fans because of the WC 2006 and some other moments i feel . Similiar is the case for Ronaldo Nazario.
Iniesta and ramos inclusion is the most ridiculous thing they did here imo. It just turns the whole thing into a joke. And highlights how players are overrated because of team trophies For how good of a player he is ,one must be retarded or totally clueless to choose Iniesta ahead of players like ZIco , Puskas LOL . Rumminegge, Baggio , Charlton etc .. is just hilarious Ramos got selected in 3rd squad and Nesta was not even nominated. Its nothing but a joke
I'm not sure whether you were wanting to consider longevity but if not so much, then maybe by your criteria actually Sammer would make it in (except strictly speaking he played the majority of the time behind 2 centre backs, once he'd taken his sweeper role in his peak/most recognised years), alongside Cannavaro. And likewise Duncan Edwards, although I know you weren't personally as impressed as you thought you might be with his FA Cup Final performance (I can see to an extent what you mean, but of course it's one game and it might not be indicative of his general play let alone very best form - as another example Tom Finney said he played very badly in his own FA Cup Final in 1954 but that's a main game to judge him on for youngsters too because it's also on Youtube...and still does have some good moments in his performance even if he was very disappointed in how he played and was coming back from injury IIRC). I name him because you wanted a definitely balanced team/midfield and I think Suarez as lone DM might not really fit that, given he was at most a deep-lying playmaker for Inter, and when he won the Ballon d'Or still more an AM/inside forward I think for Barcelona/Inter. Still in 1964 Euros Final he offers more as an AM than a DM probably I'd say too. Obviously Matthaus, Rijkaard, Neeskens etc have been included in the first 3 teams so wouldn't be available for you to use. I didn't double check just now but maybe no other DM came as high as Edwards in the Ballon d'Or.
Well there is Masopust of course! As a wing-half (albeit also more a creative player than a destroyer - but still with no more than 4 players behind him in the team probably, in contrast to Suarez in the 60s) he perhaps qualifies and could be in instead of Edwards.
To answer your previous question (as promised weeks ago), this is what I came up with (professional era only). It needs to be a center back pair and midfield that can work well. Team A Preud'Homme Gerets - Kompany - Koeman - Krol Van Moer - Rijkaard - Van Hanegem Cruijff - Van Basten - Robben (I think for an overall all-time XI, Belgium can lay a claim on the goalkeeper and the right-back for sure, and also one of the midfielders I think; the right-back perhaps the most certain of all and with the CBs you can go to all directions. Krol, Rijkaard, Cruijff and Van Basten are pretty much a lock. Van Himst is a lock for an overall 23 men squad as is Ceulemans) Team B Van der Sar Reiziger - Stam - Grün - Vertonghen Van Himst - Seedorf - Ceulemans Gullit - Van Persie - Rensenbrink Team C Pfaff Suurbier - Israel - Van Dijk - Van Bronckhorst De Bruyne - Haan - Davids - Hazard Bergkamp - Van Nistelrooij Team D Courtois Winter - Rijsbergen - F. de Boer - Van Tiggelen Sneijder - Van der Elst - Cocu - Scifo Makaay - Vandenbergh Team E Piot Jansen - Blind sr. - Albert - Renquin Van der Vaart - Van Bommel - Vercauteren Geels - Lukaku - Keizer (Geels also played as right-winger in his career, that is correct. He wasn't so prolific in that guise but not bad either; for club and country) edit: for some player as Vd Kuijlen it is difficult to find a proper place If we accept there is something like a 70 - 30 distribution in favor of Netherlands since professional football started, I'm inclined to say there is certainly a place for (leaving aside the CBs): Preud'homme, Pfaff, Courtois, Piot, Gerets, Ceulemans, Van Himst, De Bruyne, Hazard, Van Moer, Van der Elst, Lukaku (in the future), Vercauteren, Grün (also played as midfielder very well and played a number of UEFA finals that way). It's difficult, this. Some statistics surprise: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/eredivisie-2020-2021.2110039/page-4#post-39182823 At the moment I'd say Belgium has a problem in their defense and Netherlands can use a better goalkeeper and better forwards (although I have also seen tweets passing by where some compare surprisingly well, in particular when excluding penalties; and yes, maybe Lyon can win the league against a post-2012 PSG with Depay as team captain there - he was half-fit in the recent match though). I agree with you too that Wijnaldum is a likable footballer (might score more goals in a red shirt) and recently he has been receiving some high praise. Gini Wijnaldum is a machine. This is his 11th successive start for club and country over the past five weeks. No breather for him. He's absolutely relentless. #LFC— James Pearce (@JamesPearceLFC) December 6, 2020 All the credit Gini is now getting! The lad has been outstanding for the last three seasons he has just been massively overlooked. Now with all the injuries people are only starting to take notice of what a complete player Wijnaldum is!— Mike (@_mikeynolan) December 7, 2020 Gini Wijnaldum is tied with Fabinho and Jota as #LFC player of the season so far in my book.— Ambassador Das (@srijandeep) December 6, 2020 What a player Gini Wijnaldum is. Arguably our player of the season so far. Can't get my head around this situation where he's likely to go next summer. Sort it out ffs.— Sean (@shornKOOMINS) December 6, 2020 https://www.empireofthekop.com/2020...ve-how-underrated-he-is/#.X9J_vdW2PFg.twitter https://tribuna.com/en/liverpoolfc/...-i-cant-understand-why-liverpool-have-not-gi/ With some help from this site (Excape Goat his website): http://soccerfootballwhatever.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-rest-of-holland.html http://soccerfootballwhatever.blogspot.com/2014/12/belgium.html https://soccerfootballwhatever.blogspot.com/2020/03/van-team.html Neeskens remains for me the prime candidate for being the most overrated player (of the professional era at least), although still a world class player. In comparison to someone like Edgar Davids or his contemporary Haan he is overrated in my book. You're free to comment because maybe I overlooked a player.
Thanks Puck, for the thorough answer and interesting teams. I would need to digest it more fully before suggesting any players that you may have overlooked, but it did randomly come to mind that as you used mainly 4-3-3 then the system would at least suit Thijssen and Muhren well, considering their role at Ipswich (even if as this link shows it was often that ahead of the midfield it was a player in a free role behind two strikers): My Best Town XI: George Burley - Part One - Ipswich Town News | TWTD.co.uk Relevant excerpt (copied the diagram too, although it's only showing as a list now): Right midfield Frans Thijssen - Me and Frans knew each other’s games and complemented each other so well. If he had seven players around him he would still want the ball and receive the ball and just drop a shoulder and leave all seven players in his wake. I don’t say this lightly, but Thijssen was absolutely world class. 4-3-1-2 CooperBurleyMillsButcherBeattieWarkThijssenMuhrenGatesMarinerBrazil Left midfield Arnold Muhren - World class, it was Muhren’s assist for Marco van Basten’s goal in the European Championships final of the 1988 when he was aged 37. When you think of Muhren, he had every golf club in his bag when it came to passing range. Sand wedge, pitching wedge, four iron, he knew exactly what club he needed for that pass. The chemistry he and Alan Brazil had was incredible, the number of assists Muhren gave Brazil must have been huge. But yeah, with the depth of quality available to pick from in the midfield I don't suggest either one is a glaring omission (and wouldn't be sure I'd pick either as high as a 5th team myself either).
You've mentioned Neeskens yourself of course, so maybe the most prominent omission otherwise that comes to mind for me right now is Faas Wilkes, who I do wonder if you could have accidentally left out (or it could be you are uncertain because he played too early and you might be restricting it to later eras indeed which I could have missed; there is at least some decent footage including some nice highlights from AC Milan vs Inter Milan that I posted not long ago in another thread - the '23 man Ballon d'Or list' one I think).
I limited it to the professional era (as said weeks ago), thus Wilkes and the other black/white players fall away. Arnold Muhren I thought about and I have him in higher regard as Thijssen his career and abilities (although I've seen The Times in 1981 wrote Thijssen was "the only great player" currently playing in England itself, so obviously another impression they had there). Thanks for mentioning possible overlooks.