I've seen the full video and what he does here is close to a disgrace. I've already covered Yashin above, so read that back. Yashin of course didn't become an international legend by his games in the Soviet Union. edit: that it is easier to stay in your home country is true, but that applies to many keepers. Reality remains Yashin was regarded for what he did at international level, even though you can still think he is somewhat 'overrated' (not entirely faultless in the 1958, 1962 and 1966 World Cups, in the last one looking vulnerable at long range shots). What he says on VdS in the middle of the video - pretty much the only thing apart from the 'eccentrics' - is that he didn't play a national team final, and reached three semi finals, plus two quarter finals. Someone like Schmeichel of course won the whole thing. However, Chilavert and Mazurkiewicz of course didn't do any better. Additionally, he says elsewhere (in another recent video) that the Champions League has become the highest level of football since 30 years; since the Sacchi team and Dream Team. That might well be true (in 1994 the CL was already more profitable than the World Cup, for sure), but by that logic the reality is VdS played five of these finals, more than any other goalkeeper since 1955. So by that logic he played five of the 'world's best football' finals, in which he was hardly a passenger. If people are not willing to see the quality (certainly compared to this official France Football and FIFA 100 lists; England and Germany at their lowest having more quality than Holland at their best), then that is their loss. Too bad, only, that this has also real world effects, like for example the issue of seeding for tournaments (and many other things). I'll also repeat again that 10 places are really not enough, for me (for ex. I see Preud'homme on the same level overall). Something like 30 since 1955 feels better, where all top keepers can fit in. At the same time, I'm not surprised either to see this, for these three reasons below (with friendly matches not being so friendly any more): https://africa.espn.com/football/bl...recent-world-cup-meetings-has-grown-a-rivalry https://www.11v11.com/teams/netherlands/tab/opposingTeams/opposition/Spain/ In non-football terms, in case of a natural disaster, Spain is not willing to help us out (with only Canada and UK scoring lower). Possibly boosted by our politicians not willing to ship billions of euros to these mismanaged places.
That's just my idea. In brief; He wasn't as athletic or offensive as other right-backs of his era. Not as earth-scorching. Apart from his crossing, he was maybe also not particularly skilled. However, in his defense and positioning he was sufficient. He kept or defended his place for many years and of course grew into becoming team captain. Him taking so many penalties (rather than Dalglish or someone else) is also a sign of responsibility placed on him. Although his 74.5% conversion rate is okay rather than exceptional. He was part of a number of low conceding seasons. Both in Europe and the league. While euro 80 wasn't so great (played only two matches anyway), in 1982 he was once again part of a low conceding defense (1 goal against in five; because of Butcher messing up the offside trap). His misfortune was England not qualifying for 1976, 1978 and 1984; the same problem as some other countries had.
Yeah, I think maybe in Liverpool's system and pattern of play he managed to contribute going forwards in terms of exchanging passes and suchlike, and he could make inroads coming infield too I think when doing so at times, so not only staying very wide. I guess what I think is he was competent enough both in possession and defensively, so he was decent in providing both aspects of what a side-back can. Probably he could be seen as a bit lacking in 'magic' (compared to some, but he was a full-back to be fair) and I guess he'd have had some bad games here and there. I hadn't given a lot of thought to a top 10 of his era when I made my post but if doing it where we exclude those who overlapped but were from generally (and/or they peaked) before his time (eg Carlos Alberto, Suurbier, Vogts), and ditto those who overlapped but were generally/peaked after this time (eg Amoros, Bergomi, Jorginho), then I've got this as a rough first draft in alphabetical order off the top of my head (maybe others can come into it; for example I remember you valued Wijnstekers, and although he played in the centre for his club mainly I think maybe Narey could come into the equation too): Anderson (Eng) Battiston (Fra) Burley (Sco) Gentile (Ita) Gerets (Bel) Kaltz (Ger) Leandro (Bra) McGrain (Sco) Neal (Eng) Nelinho (Bra)
The only English right-backs to receive Ballon d'Or votes are Viv Anderson (16= in 1980) and Gary Stevens (29= in 1985). Left-back Terry Cooper finished equal eighteenth in both 1970 and 1971. Emlyn Hughes was equal tenth in 1977 having previously played left-back for England but it was not his normal position. Scottish full-backs Tommy Gemmell (6= 1967, 24= 1968) and John Greig (18= 1972) also picked up votes. Irishman Tony Dunne was equal eighteenth in 1966. When The Times picked their Liverpool Dream Team in 1999, right-back was Ephraim Longworth who featured in the championship-winning sides of 1922 and 1923.
I didn't expect for the top 10 remark to warrant this much comments. I should add it was FBs in the rankings I made, so it included a couple of converted players. But, for example, for the late 70s I ranked the following ahead of Neal: Kaltz Vogts Nelinho McGrain Buljan Wolff Gentile Sara Szymanowski Gerets Your mileage may vary, but the point was even in his own era there is a large chunk of players that are clearly ahead of Neal. I can't stress enough how much heat the late 70s England defence received from WS. It should be added all of those English votes were from one voter, which is always suspect. One voter can mean one drunken Bulgarian hack was pulling names out of a hat. "Who was that English perm guy who played in Germany again? Viv Anderson? Yeah, he's pretty good."
You sidestep a few of the most important points. Beginning with him (eventually) being part of a low conceding defense in the 1982 World Cup, and for Liverpool as well in a few league seasons and European campaigns. Distributed over multiple years. As for World Soccer: all nice and well, this self-styled "bible of football" (echoed by some usuals here as well) and another prominent member of the 'anglogerman alliance', but obviously I don't like them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Soccer_(magazine)#Eric_Batty's_World_XI If one believes this then Hungary, Portugal and Czechoslovakia were superior than 'Holland' [sic] for these three decades. Wouldn't surprise me if they were under the influence of Dassler and agent Huba too... sadly, such 'Stanley Rous coalition' also spills over to collusion on the real pitch, and aspects as seeding or transfer fees (resulting in 'sunk costs' by clubs and therefore the predicament to play them). Phil Neal was included once, and close in other seasons too, by the Onze Mondial readers vote. Probably more based on the European Cups than the league, but still.
Possibly the most positive source for Neal's standing would be the Voetbal International selection at the end of the 90s: 1 Carlos Alberto 2-10 Battiston, Burgnich, Geretz, Kaltz, Leandro, Neal, D. Santos, Suurbier, Vogts 11-20 Armfield, Van Binst, Dobias, Djorkaeff, Gentile, Janes, João Pinto, Josimar, McGrain, Szymanowksi http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/best-x-players-of-y.html#vi-xi 20th place in this Liverpool fan vote is significant though I guess too: https://liverpoolfc.fandom.com/wiki/100_Players_Who_Shook_The_Kop_(2006) Dropping 10 places in 2013 compared to 2006 though: https://liverpoolfc.fandom.com/wiki/100_Players_Who_Shook_The_Kop_(2013) But to be fair I wouldn't be confident necessarily in saying "I'm sure he was better than Buljan" (for example) indeed, and on the flip side could arguably be that he wasn't always first choice for England, and that he didn't end up in a PFA Team of the Year (Anderson, Jones, Alexander-Arnold, G.Neville, Stevens and Dixon all did end up in these teams of the year of the players I named earlier, plus Nicol as a non-English Liverpool player - Parker did too but while at QPR and playing as a centre back I think, if we are talking only of 1st Division teams of the year, not lower leagues) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFA_Team_of_the_Year
Your logic is hilarious. World Soccer is part of an anglogerman alliance, so clearly they're wrong when they don't rate the the defence of... England.
Because this 'fact' was hard to escape of course, with Denmark, Wales and Austria putting a high number of goals past you. Then something isn't right. In some of these poor defensive outings, however, Neal wasn't playing. So when you say they were tearing down the late 70s England defense, I guess in some of these Neal played, in others not. Eventually they got it right in 1982 most certainly and to a lesser extent 1980, and he got it consistently right at club level, spread across a decade. Most of the right-backs you listed were (more than) once part of questionable defenses as well. We can even extend that to the Maldinis, Cafu and Ramos of this world (where, of course, despite his disciplinary record the opponents are cast as the villains, by the consumer analysis driven global media, with Cambridge Analytica, Hill&Knowlton in town; and yes, it's a fact for example Juventus/Barcelona are using these sort of firms, even against their own players...). I'm not saying at all he's with a high level of certainty part of the top 10 all-time (since 1955), but to say with certainty he isn't part of the top 10 right-backs of his era is the opposite end ("large chunk of players that are clearly ahead of Neal"). That's what triggered the comments.
You can laugh me out of town: see also this example happening now. "It [the FA] has made a tentative approach to its counterparts in Germany about the possibility of the game being staged there too." https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/54843158 "Germany has emerged as the Football Association’s preferred choice to stage England’s Nations League game against Iceland if coronavirus travel restrictions mean the match cannot be played at Wembley." https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germans-may-host-england-for-iceland-game-g3kvxhx05 Now obviously it is much closer and better equiped than Albania so that part of the argument makes sense, but of course then other places as Ireland (not exactly a third world country), even closer to home, are also an option. At the very least it is not seen as equal to playing an away game. This is the vintage 'Stanley Rous FA coalition' at work (though obviously we have a close cooperation with NRW, which has largely the same religion, attitude and business culture) You can also check the Onze Mondial votes. He was once included and close to inclusion a few other times. Indeed not saying he is top 10 all-time but saying that a large chunk in his own time is clearly superior is the opposite claim.
Interesting to see you're usually so critical of polls, but faithfully recite the notoriously suspect Onze reader votes.
England is not especially renowned for right-backs. Of the ten men with thirty or more caps, English opinion probably would rank Armfield (43) and Crompton (41) above Phil Neal (50), with the others on a similar level. Only Gary Neville (85), Glen Johnson (54) and Kyle Walker (51) have played more often than Neal. The others with thirty or more caps are Ramsey, Cohen, Anderson and Gary Stevens. Like Neville, Neal possesses a glittering trophy cabinet. Along with his Liverpool teammates he was better for club than country, the unique insular set-up at Anfield maximising potential, but the gap was not as wide as it was for some. England's defence in the mid to late 1970s was not helped by the rotation of goalkeepers Clemence and Shilton, nor by occasional attempts to cram in all the best defenders by fielding centre-backs at full-back (Todd, Beattie, Hughes). Of Neal's European right-back contemporaries, Kaltz did best in the Ballon d'Or, followed by Gerets and Anderson.
I'm not really following this blindly. It's just that he got noticed outside his own borders. Obviously I try to 'test' this view by looking at things as goals conceded record, and there are also some other 'objective' things to mention. I also echo PDG1978 his view he wasn't the most 'magical' full-back, but his crossing was fairly good (same for G. Neville).
Yesterday I watched after the international games (it were friendlies but with seeding at stake, unless UEFA changes the method again) one documentary from ten years ago about the 1983-84 bribery affair (about events in 1981-82 in actuality). It hadn't seen this before. Here a summary in English about that affair. Relevant for this subject though, is that it also comes to the fore big foreign teams had wanted Gerets for several years, and for several years Standard had blocked a move; pre-Bosman (labor law in Wallonia was less favorable as up north). Big foreign clubs were open about wanting him. Eventually he moved to AC Milan (Milan were also offered Zico, but they refused him at that price). He played quite well there, but his career was halted because of the affair. I have to say, one can wonder whether Neal goes in the same category, as in taking a valuable foreigner slot. Still, that doesn't exclude Neal from top ten right-back in his era yet. In terms of "insularity": some of Gerets his compatriots were more inclined to leave the country as others, were more risk-averse (Ceulemans: "turned down an offer from Italian club A.C. Milan. He remains the only football player to have posed with the A.C. Milan board for the press that never actually became an A.C. Milan player."). That has now certainly loosened with the modern generation. Another one who is discussed in favorable terms is Haan. Preud'homme describes him as "he was the architect of Anderlecht before, of course he let the team play better". Haan himself says he played at a better level these two years, as his last two Anderlecht years (where he was team captain), which weren't of the default level. Tahamata his technique and delivery is obvious from the shown highlights, with Meeuws and Swedish forward Wendt also picked out. The relevant actors coming across not so well are the secretary-general of that time (Roger Petit), and the well-known manager Raymond Goethals. Maybe easy to do so, because Goethals was already deceased by then. It's observed that when Marseille won the CL in 1993, nobody congratulated him. Haan is by a minority seen as a snitch and traitor (he subbed himself out in the relevant match, video is shown of him sitting on the bench); of all the players Gerets received the most damage and highest punishment. Preud'homme had (at worst) only a sideways involvement, but lost his goalkeeping place for two-and-a-half years and didn't play at club level. Also passing by are the high amount of black money (low taxes) in the region of Limburg and Liege ("the local inspector is different cook as the magistrate in Brussels"); the dubious 1982 Cup Winners Cup final in the Camp Nou against Barcelona, where there was very reasonable complaint and it was most definitely one-sided officiating (for example at the goal scored). N.B. quite arguably a parallel here with the mentioned 1950s enforcement of amateurism rules.
Yeah, he was a regular nominee I reminded myself today (via the thread about it on here, started by Vegan10, that contains links to the 1976-1991 results breakdown). So he did enough to firstly persuade the editorial team to put him on the shortlist and then to convince a reasonable proportion to select him in 1978, 1979, 1983 and 1984, in addition to 1985 when he made the XI of course. Probably it is based mainly on the European Cup games, but nevertheless he's actually the most recognised Liverpool defender of that era with that source to be fair indeed (not to say the most praised within England, and of course there were stand-out options as libero for example in most of those years that the panel and readership would naturally pick, outside the Liverpool team). Maybe French TV did show a few major English games outside of the FA Cup Final from time to time (or highlights) in those years but I don't know to what extent they did. Still, it's indicative of a good impression (given French candidates getting voted particularly well of course, so eg in 1984 he's almost the joint top non-French right back and with about 20% of the votes for that position even including Battiston's votes). Another thing re: this thread's discussion is that N'Kono comes a good 3rd in 1982, largely because of the World Cup displays I guess. I suppose I sat on the fence before, but if I had to try to call it maybe I'd lean towards Jones and Alexander-Arnold as Liverpool/English right backs, just about over Neal. Based on perception of peak club form anyway (given Jones had a short career due to injury, and TAA isn't far through his yet). I tend to feel Jones has slightly extra defensively, if only/mainly because he was so quick, while despite a lack of goals he was actually decent on the ball and put in some good crosses himself, and his assists tally in specific seasons is decent, even if only around half of what TAA gets last season for example. When we did that All-Time World Cup game England weren't even an option as we had British Isles teams in the end, and I wasn't 'manager' of either of those. I suppose a test of a personal view (and it's just one person's and I'm not 100% convinced anyway as I alluded to) is who'd have been in a squad for that sort of game (albeit longevity might get under-appreciated that way I understand, and Neal's continued relevance and excellence in his role counts positively towards a general overview about career I think). Maybe I'd end up with this (with just 2 goalies like we had in that game unless we wanted more ourselves...which I know is a bit unrealistic), with Neal in a 'B' squad (I know we had a 'B' draft but probably an All-Time 'B team' World Cup game would be getting too niche lol!), theoretically as first choice if I had the more reliable options pencilled in as starting players and alternative full-back choices being there to give options for a more gung-ho approach (more attacking and/or high tempo, and with the full backs getting forwards box to box to a greater extent). A squad: 1 Gordon Banks 2 Rob Jones 3 Stuart Pearce 4 Duncan Edwards 5 Billy Wright 6 Bobby Moore 7 Stanley Matthews 8 Gary Lineker 9 Bobby Charlton 10 Jimmy Greaves 11 Tom Finney 12 Alan Shearer 13 Peter Shilton 14 Des Walker 15 Sol Campbell 16 David Beckham 17 Kevin Keegan 18 Glenn Hoddle 19 Paul Gascoigne 20 John Barnes 21 Bryan Robson 22 Trent-Alexander Arnold 23 Graeme Le Saux B squad: 1 David Seaman 2 Phil Neal 3 Ray Wilson 4 Steven Gerrard 5 Rio Ferdinand 6 Gary Pallister 7 Alan Ball 8 Johnny Haynes 9 Peter Osgood 10 Michael Owen 11 Martin Peters 12 Stan Mortensen 13 Ray Clemence 14 Colin Bell 15 Colin Todd 16 Tony Adams 17 Trevor Francis 18 Frank Lampard 19 Paul Scholes 20 Teddy Sheringham 21 Chris Waddle 22 Viv Anderson 23 Terry Cooper I know I put a few players in that are older than Armfield, but going with the policy of needing to have seen them play at least a reasonable amount and/or have a very good idea about their game and attributes, I stuck to not considering him...so whether I'd concur with him being the number 1 English right-back (I think Crompton belonged to an era in which the position/role was not the same anyway, but I can see that in terms of fame/status in own era his name would come into it like Peterhrt alluded to) I'm not sure. I do remember Armfield as very good radio summariser though who was enjoyable to listen to with his thoughtful analysis and pleasant manner. He was also involved in recruiting Terry Venables to the England manager's job and/or as part of his staff in some way I seem to remember, in the 90s.
That England selection is really superbly crowded with great players. Two really fine full backs like Mick Mills and Kenny Sansom couldn't make it. And Terry Cooper, who was so impressive for Leeds before his injuries, just barely makes the squad.
Yeah, I did think about Sansom, even for squad 1 (also Ashley Cole). It was deciding to go with the attacking secondary options that led to Sansom missing out I suppose, as I remember Le Saux could be great in the final 3rd of the pitch and has the pinpoint deliveries on his left side to offer for crosses (sometimes shots too like the famous goal vs Brazil!), and Cooper indeed I began to more and more appreciate, especially for attacking qualities, when we were looking back at late 60s potential top 23s and teams of the season etc. Mills was one who probably held back Neal from a bigger tally of caps I'd think isn't he? I haven't studied fully the details though, and maybe Neal at times was injured when Mills or others played in his place. Anderson and Neal are from the same generation basically anyway (albeit Anderson younger, but certainly with overlapping primes for them and their team's success, including in European competitions).
Mick Mills played 10 games for England at right-back, 30 at left-back (including two as substitute) and 2 at centre-back. His normal position at Ipswich was left-back. Mills replaced Neal at right-back for England's final two matches of the 1982 World Cup and was captain both times. But they were not usually in competition with one another. After the 1982 World Cup Bobby Robson took over from Ron Greenwood as England manager. Robson ended Mills' career for both Ipswich and England at the age of 33. Mills never played for England under Robson. Most England caps at left-back: Cole (107), Sansom (86), Pearce (78), Wilson (63). Phil Neville played 59 times, mostly at left-back but sometimes elsewhere. Eddie Hapgood (30 + 13 unofficial wartime internationals) and Roger Byrne (33) were also among England's most highly rated in the position.
Thanks for the summary mate. Yeah, I did have the 1982 World Cup in mind. For Ipswich it'd normally be Burley at right back and Mills at left back through the late 70s into the 80s wouldn't it. I think I'm right in saying Mills was right footed though predominantly.
Yes Mills was right-footed. Terry Cooper was a converted winger, at his best going forward, whose career was curtailed by injury. His performance at the 1970 World Cup was highly praised but probably a little overrated. Too much was asked of him as an attacker in a team without wingers, and he was given the run-around in the heat by both Jairzinho and Grabowski.
Slightly off-topic. But i am curious to know one thing from you @Vegan10 if you're not bothered asking.
Upon request I'll try a combined Benelux squad from the professional era, so that also more balance arises. Is this appropriate to do? Perhaps, because for example Kristof Terreur says here he grew up being a Rijkaard and Van Basten fan, and as he grew up close to the border, his family also went shopping up north. Think also of Hazard his eleven (yes, it has also a high French representation, this), or the survey of 2018 in Holland (who should be supported in the absence of the national team). Combined population, minus Luxemburg, is 28 million as of now (22 million in 1970). I've made a start with something like this but it might change. I think some are hard to leave out (Gerets maybe not 100% first XI but has to be in somewhere). 1 Preud'homme 2 Gerets 3 ?? 4 Koeman 5 Krol 6 Rijkaard 7 Robben 8 Bergkamp 11 Ceulemans 12 Van Basten 13 Hazard 14 Cruijff 15 Haan 16 17 De Bruyne 19 Van der Sar 20 Seedorf 23 Pfaff Some of these might drop out eventually. But I think you can already guess which ones will be definites. It might lead to the strange result of the record cap holders and/or record goalscorers not going in, but have to see. Among the areas where the Red Devils have an arguable edge are the goalkeepers and the right-backs. The 'number eights' maybe too.
Nice job Puck. Completing the squad should be an interesting, and uncertain, task I guess! Maybe also it affects things if a formation for the first XI is chosen before the players or is only decided once all 23 names have been selected? I could imagine that could affect a few choices both in the squad and the XI. Like you say some names are virtual certainties really (two of them wearing iconic numbers of 12 and 14 I see though, rather than for example 9 and 10!).