Ballon d'Or Dream Team (2020)

Think the opinions differed on Meert and he's hurt by always playing for a quite good team. Piot, Pfaff and Preud'homme all showed their merit/heroics for less good club teams, and have the video material as lasting evidence (as well as foreign recognition, although this is as mentioned less the case for Piot). Van Himst regarded Meert however as the best keeper he has seen for his club.

 

Same for Pfaff his first cap in 1976. The euro 76 quarter final with the wonder goal. He memorized it today.

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I would have loved to play in the Netherlands. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I could go to Ajax, after Heinz Stuy. To AZ, for Eddy Treijtel. I could also go to Feyenoord, and to FC Twente. But Beveren always asked too much money. In the end, there was only one club willing to pay for it. I was already 29 when I went to Bayern Munich. That's why I never started walking next to my shoes. When Johan Cruijff came to me, he said: “In you I see a boy like me”. Very nice. Cruijff had a much bigger career than I did, but he almost always remained himself. A very normal and self-critical person."
[...]
"Do you know whose shirt I also own? Yes, from Johan Cruijff." Received after his debut for Belgium, in 1976, when Cruijff outwitted him with a magic ball. "Untenable, like all my goals against", the Pfaff classic joke sounds. "The gloves I used that day are still hanging here."

El Sympatico wanted to see the questions before the interview. They were about Maradona. The answers a little less. "You can't say me anything wrong about Cruijff," he concludes. "Then I will leave immediately! Always time, always interested. How are you? How are the children? I have rarely seen a cleaner person than Johan."
https://www.vi.nl/pro/haat-liefdeve...-dn-diego-kan-een-voorbeeld-nemen-aan-cruijff
(what they forget or overlook, is that he wrote the foreword for Pfaff his autobiography)

 

Only saw this now, the past two days (first the top 100 yesterday, then the panel discussion today); in 2009 there was a panel that made a top 100 for 'Sport/Voetbalmagazine'. Kompany was at the time, with 28 caps, the only one included who was born in the 1980s or later. He just about made the top 100 at place 99-100, for a part on the back of his Champions League games for Anderlecht it seems (and the buzz around it then).

Interesting - and the reason I post this - are the comments by this panel, rather than the ordering. The ordering was Pfaff #9; Preud'homme #11; Piot #13; Nicolay #25; Meert #55; De Wilde #95; Munaron #97.

One other somewhat noteworthy goalkeeper, Danny Verlinden (link) is understandably not on this: had only one cap but was for a few years the oldest used CL player (until Costacurta surpassed it), and was also for 1390 minutes unbeaten at a time the league was top five in the coefficients.

Here in spoilers the comments regarding the goalkeepers:

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For almost five hours, the eight jury members were busy debating the top 100 of the best Belgian footballers ever. Or how Aimé Anthuenis, François Colin, Wim De Coninck, Ariël Jacobs, Jacques Sys, Raf Willems, Jan Wauters and Robert Waseige agreed.
[...]
Who should definitely be in the top five?
[...]
Waseige: "And Christian Piot."

Anthuenis: "When you talk about Piot, you should also include Pfaff and Preud'homme."

De Coninck: "Jean Nicolay?"

Wauters: "He just falls below that. Piot was a monument in the goal. Raymond Goethals once said:" Pfaff is only half a Piot." But Pfaff has developed further and Piot cracked his body at the age of 30. For a goalkeeper that is young. Preud'homme, who had just a little less talent, has developed through his character, through his exceptional competence in one-on-one situations. Pfaff was the numero uno who conceded fifteen goals at the World Cup. Not all of them his fault but ... "

Sys: "But Pfaff was the one who stayed at Bayern Munich for six years, one of the most difficult clubs in Europe in that era. You should do that anyway, the context for a foreign keeper wasn't easy. I sometimes feel that Pfaff's thirst for publicity works a little against him and his overshadows his performances. "

Colin: "I rate them both equally because they were both voted the best in the world at a World Cup. A few weeks ago I talked to people from FIFA in Zurich. The question was which footballer we have to unpack for the 2018 World Cup bid. Everyone said, without much hesitation: Pfaff of course!"

Anthuenis: "Don't forget how Pfaff started: very poor, ten of us in a caravan. One of his brothers used to be an attraction, who walked around the field during half time while holding the ball high and doing tricks."

Should he be in the top ten together with Piot and Preud'homme?

Anthuenis: "No, those are too many keepers in the top. One keeper in the first ten is enough."

De Coninck: "Pfaff and Preud'homme have to be in that top ten."

Willems: "Not right. Piot was the best."

Waseige: "Piot is a victim of his modesty. He did not sell himself well. Preud'homme was fanatic and he played better out of goal than Christian, was better in one-on-one. But Christian didn't need to come out of his goal with defenders like Jeck and Beurlet ahead of him, playing that way. "

Preud'homme or Pfaff, Robert?

Waseige: "Then it's Pfaff. Becoming and staying king in Munich, then a difficult place, is a fantastic achievement."
[...]
Pfaff or Gerets?

De Coninck: "What I saw from Pfaff in the preparation for the European Championship in 1984, that was unbelievable. From the sixteen they were allowed to fire everything, he was unbeatable."

Wauters: "If he had to come out, it was a different story. For me he can be eleven or twelve. But I can live with it if he is higher. But then Gerets has to close the top ten."

Who just below the top ten? Piot or Preud'homme?

Raf Willems: "I continue to think Piot is the best Belgian goalkeeper ever."

Wauters: "Athletically, Piot was the better keeper, but in the end Preud'homme made a great career after his thirtieth birthday while Piot lost his body. With the specialty of coming out: in man-to-man situations, he was the first to do that in a perfectionist way. Ten years ago, I would say Piot ahead of Preud'homme, now I would turn that around. "
[...]
Waseige: "How is it possible that Jean Nicolay is not yet in it and we miss him?"

Wauters: "Nicolay was the first modern goalkeeper who also trained professionally, while Rie Meert was the goalkeeper for me just after the war, in the amateur time, still living on his class."
[...]
Wauters: "Is Henri Diricx not eligible? For years left back of Union and the national team. I also have a few keepers: Pol Gernaey, for example, from Ostend and Beerschot."

De Coninck: "Was he better than Filip De Wilde?"

Wauters: "Not any better, but they won't be far from each other."

Waseige: And Jacky Munaron.

Anthuenis: "Tell me who was the best, Robert, you worked with De Wilde and with Munaron."

Waseige: "Munaron lived with and for the team, De Wilde lived in his small cell. You should not underestimate what Munaron still meant to Club Liège. He came from Anderlecht, but he was not exhausted yet, you know."

https://sporza.be/nl/2014/08/19/van-moer_-_nicolay-was-in-zijn-periode-outstanding-1-2064345/
-------------------------

That 'modernism' and professionalism of Nicolay is perhaps not self-explanatory, but Van Moer said this when Nicolay passed away in 2014, aged 76.


Wilfried Van Moer has played one year in his career with Jean Nicolay, who passed away on Monday at the age of 76. Van Moer is full of praise for the ex-Standard goalkeeper. "He already had the qualities that a modern goalkeeper should have."

"Jean Nicolay was a really good goalkeeper," said Wilfried Van Moer about the ex-Standard keeper, who played for Standard more than 500 times. "He was one of the best goalkeepers within Belgium in his time."

"Jean was a strong line keeper with incredible reflexes, but he was also technically good. When we played training matches, he always wanted to participate as a real footballer and he was one of the better players. He had all those qualities that a modern keeper should have."

What does Van Moer still know about the period in which he played at Standard with Nicolay? "He always gave me a good impression. He was a bit special, he was the boss in the dressing room. As a Fleming import, I had to listen to the local from Liège."

"He always wanted to win and didn't have an easy character. What do I mean by that? He couldn't stand losing. If we lost, he was angry with himself and everyone and started screaming. But that is what some good players do. And when we went for a pint after the match, it was completely different. He was a good man. "

Nicolay was also number one with the national team for eight years. Where does Van Moer place him in history? "After him came better goalkeepers, such as Pfaff and Preud'homme in my honest view. But he can be counted among the elite group of the Belgian goalkeepers. Of course something like that is time-bound, but in his own period he stood out."
https://sporza.be/nl/2014/08/19/van-moer_-_nicolay-was-in-zijn-periode-outstanding-1-2064345/

 

Sorry, for the discussion I copied the wrong link. This is the correct link:
https://sportmagazine.knack.be/sport/magazine/top-100/article-normal-1268983.html

It's also useful to repeat what Raf Willems (a Fleming) gave in 1999. For the team of the century these were given as options (not in order):

Jasjin, Zoff, Banks, Zamora, Beara, Gilmar, Grosics, Schroif, Carbajal, Maier, Mazurkiewicz, Schumacher, Schmeichel, Van der Sar, Van Beveren, Dassajev, Iribar, Combi, Jennings, Shilton

For some reason, in contrast to the other categories (e.g. Coeck is shortlisted) no Belgian goalkeeper is shortlisted. While for example Pfaff was 10th among Europeans, Preud'homme 19th, in the IFFHS century vote of 1999 (Van Breukelen was 20th, VdS 24th in 1999). The competitive strength of the national team in the last 50-55 years can be roughly compared to Uruguay.

His work with profiles, also in 1999, included Banks, Van Beveren, Mazurkiewicz, Pfaff, Yashin, Zoff, Zubizarreta.
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/best-x-players-of-y.html

As @PDG1978 noticed, the hardcover version included more names but no further goalkeepers were on this.

The recent 2020 book with profiles, originally published at a Belgian publisher but also appearing up north, included Yashin, Banks, Van Beveren, Zoff, Pfaff, Schmeichel, Van der Sar, Casillas, Neuer, Courtois.

It's possible Gejus van der Meulen his collaboration with the Nazis has (rightly) hurt him in later assessments. Most commonly Just Göbel and Frans de Munck are singled out for the early years. Historian Matty Verkamman digested a 'Big Six' in player reputation: Gobel, Van der Meulen, De Munck, Graafland, Van Beveren, Van der Sar. Whereby Van der Meulen can be replaced by Van Breukelen (who was often criticized in his day, but was nevertheless an elite level goalkeeper for a prolonged period of time).

Personally I'd say, with Courtois his career ongoing, Preud'homme is the best Belgian goalkeeper - I thought the same previously - and Van der Sar the best from the Netherlands (he was most likely the best stopper in the Champions League at the age of 40-41 really, and the 2nd best of the Premier League behind Hart at his peak - while playing behind an ever changing line-up of defenders). One of the examples in his youth was Preud'homme.

Everything considered, Preud'homme was a more rounded keeper than Pfaff was; maybe Pfaff was a fraction better on his line and with shots close to his body, helped by his body type, and he has a place in these sort of discussions. Preud'homme won an European trophy as possibly the outright best player of his team (in 1988).

 

This is basically what (North-Holland born) Henk Spaan wrote in 1998, too.

"About a goalkeeper countries often claim he is the best in the world. Personally I think then about Gordon Banks, Lev Yashin or Christian Piot as best of the world."
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/d...ation-1979-1994.1978389/page-20#post-38691794

I think, just like bigger countries (with a three to five times as high population), there have been some 'intermediate stage' keepers as well. Sometimes still among the best in a major tournament (CL, World Cup) but nevertheless an 'in between the monuments' goallie. At other moments there is the misfortune Preud'homme is only five years younger than Pfaff.

I'd also say that all these Benelux guys had their ups and downs, maybe with the arguable exception of VdS, who had a steady lower-level baseline (given the stats he still had for Juventus, ESM team of the month, 100% save percentage at euro 2000, and it took Buffon a decade to equal the 'goals conceded' column).

Preud'homme comes pretty close as well, I'd say, but has sideways involvement in the dismal bribery affair of the early 1980s (the only starting/integral player who saved his face was the veteran Arie Haan). Called the 'case Bellemans' or 'Waterschei affair' - investigated by the judicial system. Take that out, which you can't, and he had a strong baseline as well.

Gordon Banks is nowadays best known for a famous save, Preud'homme for 1994, Pfaff for an interview

 

Well yes, with 'lower-level baseline' I meant performances rather than perception or flamboyance.

If it's about perception or 'buzz' then Preud'homme had also lows, like some years before the 1994 World Cup. When his career looked as if being stuck on 'repeat mode', but then he added a new thing to his career. I was referring to the performances though (as how I see it and/or with tangibles in support), rather than the 'yawn factor'. The sideways involvement in the 'Bellemans case' cost him a place in the euro 1984 squad (just as e.g. Gerets). That episode aside, he had a steady level throughout I think for (nearly) two decades, as one of the two exceptions I mentioned.

Fulham was quite free-spending in the initial few years (Al-Fayed his pockets) - not any more in the last two - and I've seen a few British articles stating he was the best paid player (helped by appearance fees) and they bought him for a club record. In two years of his stay he was in the top 10 of the IFFHS goalkeeper vote (admittedly not a particularly good award).

The all-time great Peter Schmeichel - also nominated by FF of course - himself listed these goalkeepers for a euro 2004 BBC preview; I suppose Schmeichel was someone who based it on performance and technical grounds. The highlighted keepers other than his countryman Sorensen were VdS, Barthez (then playing in France and reaching the UEFA Cup final), Cech (before his move to Chelsea, Schmeichel mentioning his "fantastic reputation") and Buffon.

 

What is actually "clarified" here? In these outtakes?

Proof is given for Chilavert his shot stopping or save percentage? Proof is given for Casillas, the "best ever", topping the indexes in 2011 rather than other (and busier) goalkeepers for elite clubs?

His international legend was enlarged by the international games he played, his success there, plain and simple. Not by how he played in the Soviet Union. One might very well think he is 'overrated', but this reasoning doesn't look correct.

It's also patronizing and condescending, using the modern situation as a stick to beat Yashin with.

Maybe you can make an argument for the 'greatest', for the 'best' I'd like to see some actual substance. It's just another down-chopper, this sponsored journalist and demographics driven man.

 

Makes great sense I'd say, even though Zanetti was only once nominated for the BdO, in 1996, without receiving votes. Still, no actual clarification is given.

 

The idea Neal is definitely not top ten right-back in his era (meaning: 1975 to 1985 generation of players) looks as weird to me as thinking 'shamateur' Hungary in 1953 had less quality players as the team they demolished a few times.

I can actually reason this properly, and it is not merely the trophies...

 

Chilavert was considered one of the best at the 1998 World Cup, and for good reason, because with 90.9% he had the highest save percentage of anyone that tournament. So here is an actual "clarification", if you like.

However, that is just one tournament. Other aforementioned keepers are among the top for a number of them (VdS, who this demographics pandering clown wants to drop and instead insert his latin darlings, was among the top for five or six tournaments).

 

Opposite to this though is club football deliberately turned into a closed shop, with as a result of that power a declined wages to turnover ratio for the elite clubs:

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2020/11/0...n-onverzadigbaar-dat-is-het-probleem-a4018796