Ballon d'Or awards revisited by BigSoccer users

Certainly interesting!

I suppose firstly when he said he reached his prime he doesn't have to mean he didn't continue in his prime as a Real Madrid player necessarily though (it's not quite the same as "I played the best football of my life in Colombia" or something like that I guess).

It would seem feasible he could be at the best stage of his career in theory, being still quite young, and also having refined his game and got 'wiser' already, and being helped by playing alongside Pedernera maybe (he has referred to this hasn't he I think).

This piece that vegan10 translated that I quote here doesn't talk a lot about how Di Stefano was in Colombia (probably he didn't see much of him playing at that time, but moreso in Argentina and then as a Real Madrid player):
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...heir-best-players.2126578/page-6#post-4191294

He was probably seen as a candidate for best/greatest ever more after he joined Real Madrid I guess, but on the other hand he had become the player Real Madrid wanted to buy while he was in Colombia (and impressed them directly when playing against them of course). I think he was very highly regarded during his first season with Real Madrid (and initially he was selected to play vs England in the Rest of World/(Europe) game of 1953)
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/interesting-best-xi.325564/page-68#post-42437647
(Note that the video I put in that post re: Zemen was the wrong one and then I posted the right one later, if you look at that part of my post too!)
Bozsik, Kocsis and Puskas would have been selected too if Hungary had allowed it:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/interesting-best-xi.325564/page-67#post-42435396
Di Stefano did make it in an All-Time XI in 1954 (but not in a unanimous/decisive way exactly):
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/interesting-best-xi.325564/page-58#post-39286727

Maybe the video documentary (with some computer-created goal re-creation moments in it) I posted in this post would be interesting to you (as you can see I originally found the Pedernera goal on a Youtube channel then searched and found the longer video which does show a Di Stefano overheaad kick for Millonarios I remember too):
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/w...-all-time-great.2131359/page-62#post-42629625
(Nothing to do with 'over-rated players' to be honest - not to say there can't be opinions that Di Stefano as one of the regularly chosen greatest ever can't be considered for that topic I suppose - but it just happened that I posted it on that thread).

 

I have the impression that Puskás' peak was in Honvéd 1950 and Di Stéfano's peak was in Millonarios 1951. Between the ages of 23 and 25, players generally reach the prime of their career, Pelé is a clear example.

 

It does seem possible, and feasible, in terms of abilities (as opposed to career impact) but I wouldn't be confident to say I feel sure about it because it would still feel a bit speculative.

Some players have a later peak of course too: some examples could possibly be Michael Laudrup, Kenny Dalglish, Didi, Franco Baresi, Robert Pires, Nandor Hidegkuti, Eric Cantona, Michel Platini, George Weah, Lionel Messi, perhaps....Bobby Charlton I think probably....

 

What is Messi's peak in your opinion? Most of the answers are 2012, 2015 and 2019 at least in my bubble. If your answer is 2012 or even 2015 I wouldn't say his peak was "late".

 

I can answer on Franco Baresi. I don't think he had a late peak, Baresi was already very strong from his youth years, where he was nicknamed 'UFO' and in '79 I have an article in the Gazzetta in which he was already compared to Beckenbauer. He became 'famous' when the rise of AC Milan began, but I can assure you that Franco was already very strong from the beginning of his career. At the 1982 World Cup it seems to me that he didn't play as a starter only because Bearzot wanted to deploy him in midfield and he didn't want to.

 

I believe that the Messi between 2015 and 2019 was the most 'complete' Messi. He had assimilated a greater knowledge of the game than in previous years. A bit like Di Stefano in River, in 1947 he was already devastating, but between Millonarios and Real Madrid he had reached his maximum football maturity, which made him an even stronger player.

 

I think that putting Di Stéfano as the best player in the world in 1947 is a big mistake for many. The perception is that Moreno, Zizinho or Mazzola were even better players than River's Di Stéfano, who was considered a pure 9.

 

Yes, but he lost a bit of his explosiveness and was less of a goalscorer during that period

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Di Stefano, when he was at River Plate, had a playing style similar to Ronaldo Il Fenomeno. Very fast (which earned him the nickname "saeta rubia") and with exceptional ball control and tactical/space reading.

 

I don't think he was less incisive, it was Barcelona that was no longer the team it used to be. Especially after the last Champions League won with Luis Enrique, Barcelona had a decline and if they won in Spain it is precisely because Messi continued to be decisive. Then he certainly didn't have the explosiveness of previous years, but he had a football intelligence and a superior reading of the games.

I absolutely agree with you, I think it is a mistake to consider Di Stefano the best player in the world in 1947. That was the year he began his ascent and played a formidable season. I have opened a forum post with match reports that I am still completing: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/river-plate-1947-match-report-and-statistics.2133269/

 

You made a good reading. That's exactly what I was telling my friends at X. They thought because I said 9 puro I was referring to someone like Gerd Müller, but no, Di Stéfano at River was closer to what Ronaldo was in his prime.

 

His tactical role changed with Xavi's absence from the team. He started operating further away from the goal and helping to build-up and dictate the tempo of the game. Also with the arrival of Suarez, he became the focal point of the attacking plays.

 

Best teams by lustrum:

1901-05 Sheffield Wednesday
1906-10 Newcastle
1911-15 Blackburn Rovers
1916-20 Nacional
1921-25 Huddersfield Town
1926-30 Rangers
1931-35 Arsenal
1936-40 Independiente

I would like your opinion @PDG1978 I think you know better than me about old football, especially British football.

 

2015 is later than 23-25 years old (but 2011 is not, so I intended the 'perhaps' to relate to Messi in my post, not Charlton - the 'probably' is what I related to him).

I would probably suggest 2015 anyway, but feasibly 2011 is an option I do think.

 

Yeah, true, although I feel like his matured version may have been the best in terms of defensive capabilities overall, reading of the game, decision making, maybe passing too, even if i didn't watch enough of him at a younger age to be totally sure probably.

I think Ballon d'Or placings can sometimes be indicative more of the team success than how well the individual is playing, but I still feel like he was probably overall as good as ever, or better, in the late 80s and 1990 say.

Of course they had Scirea so it was not a straightforward route to the Italian XI as sweeper, but in the end the majority probably see peak Baresi as more of an all-time Italy (or world) XI option than Scirea (not all Italians think so though I know and I'm not sure I ever saw Bearzot's own call on that). Being able to play as more of a true centre back, though still kind of the 'libero' in some aspects, probably made him more developed and complete too I guess.

 

Not so much the ball control I think (compared to R9 of late 90s, but also himself later on at Millonarios probably, and Real Madrid), according to himself and other Argentinians seemingly (other players of the time being 'more technical' and references to him developing that side and the general game understanding later in his career).

Although I did see one quote posted on the forum (by Argentinian Alejandro Scopelli possibly IIRC) that said Matthias Sindelar was like young Di Stefano (according to what I understood previously though Di Stefano would already be stronger/more robust and a bit quicker and more explosive I think, but Sindelar more clever and technical, and elusive, compared to young Di Stefano seemingly).

 

I think on this subject other guys are better such as @peterhrt @comme @msioux75 @Tom Stevens (sorry if I forget other good options right now)....

 

Perhaps, from what I gather, I would suggest Celtic as an option for early 1910s and MTK Budapest as an option for late 1910s though for example (I don't necessarily suggest replacing his choices but they seem to at least be feasible options if I understand correctly).

 

Thanks for clarifying, mate. I apologize for the heated discussions we had earlier.

It's just that I don't think the ball control of R9 were all that much if compared to Maradona or Messi for example and I've never seen Di Stefano play at River Plate so I really have no idea except for some reports of his game style on internet.

What I found in my research is that he was more of a scorer than his Real Madrid version who were more complete and came back to mark and help build up and playmaking. But "he already demonstrated a great dribbling ability and tactical awareness since his early days at River Plate and Huracan".

Maybe you have more information or had access to some material I don't have access to. Would you share it with us?

 

I can see what I can locate over the next days.

On a semi-related note (these guys wouldn't be so aware of pre-RM Di Stefano though I guess), these all-time teams from early-mid 60s presumably were interesting I thought:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...eir-best-players.2126578/page-7#post-42686963

 

I don't know how it happened (maybe I accidentally deleted or didn't copy the final digit) but I realise the link didn't go to the right place, so I'm trying again now @anamnesis del fútbol @Isaías Silva Serafim (this piece Vegan10 posted does talk about Di Stefano as a player in Argentina):
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...eir-best-players.2126578/page-6#post-41912941

"An interesting piece of analysis from arguably the most influential journalist of this publication of the 20th century. The man that is considered to have coined River Plate’s famous slogan of “La Máquina”, translated to the machine. In a review by Borocotó in 1954 he examined the game of four River Plate icons of the last 30 years: Bernabé Ferrerya, Adolfo Pedernera, Walter Gómez and Alfredo Di Stèfano.

Out of the four players examined, Pedernera, particularly in 1943 prior to injuries which required surgery, was the best center-forward that this journalist witnessed. This personal observation included any player outside the confines of Argentinian football, in a list that included the Brazilian Arthur Friendenreich and Uruguay’s José Antonio Piendibene. He had it all and could adapt to all five forward positions. As stated “Adolfo was a brain on the field; the pass, the dribble, the whole range of nuances (…) In football there was only one Adolfo. And there will be no other.”

The observation of Bernabé was that he was a fulminating shooter that attracted the crowds in ways that no one had ever done. Kind of like a homerun hitter in baseball, he was the man of goal, the best scorer of his time and all time in Argentinian football. People flocked the stadiums to witness his cannon shots and although he wasn’t known as a technician, people wanted to see the Babe Ruth of Argentinian football: the homerun scorer.

Walter Gómez was a player of the last 30 meters towards goal, where you separate the men from boys, where the phalanx comes out and sharp cleats sweat blood. It’s where spaces are reduced and more difficult to operate. Don’t expect him to drop deep to initiate and gestate plays. He’s not for that (or wasn’t for that). He’s rather “apathetic”, maybe even considered intermittent, fading in and out of games, but inside the box where others fold, because it’s where the war is at, Walter appears valiantly with impossible plays and memorable goals. [Here the author implies there’s times a defender just takes him out of the game, but it’s also stated that where Walter operates it’s the most difficult place to play, where little space exists, and where he has to conjure up his own means to succeed]

As for Alfredo Di Stèfano, this is what was written: “That's right: La Saeta (The Arrow) Alfredo Di Stéfano ran like a compressor. And it was vibrating, electric, shaking the stadiums. He seeped through every crack. And if there was no more space, he would create them. They must remember him for his runs from the middle of the field and the pack of defenders left behind. A long pass, a cut, and the arrow who penetrated at 70 minutes per hour. It’s true: he would beat the clock. When he left Argentina he was fantastic. Now, in Spain, he is the super gifted one. If this absence and many others has harmed us in terms of football, since the exodus to Colombia meant a very thorough pruning and we had to wait years for the new sprouts to become branches, it is also true that far from here Di Stéfano gave us prestige. So much so that last time I read a comment that said more or less like this: "To value Argentine football you have to consider the constant drains that European football makes on it." And it is true, absolute truth, without patriotic passion. We do not know how far he would have reached if he had stayed in our environment. It's possible that his game would have undergone the same transformation here that he experienced away from home. Because he is no longer that electrifying thing, of quick and impossible slalom runs; his football has become more solid, firmer; in other words, now Di Stéfano is more of a player.”(…) [Here the author expresses to the readers that the athlete has evolved into a total player]"

 

I almost quote @anamnesis del fútbol , but it's totally off-topic.
Sorry, a very interesting topic, but in its own Thread, to not mixed things.

 

Could you give me a link on the topic?

 

Apparently the Scottish teams did not do well against the English teams. And I doubt MTK is even up to par with the British teams.

https://www.rsssf.org/tablesa/angloscot-club.html

 

Just create a new Thread