Ballon d'or 2020

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by AD78, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #51 carlito86, Jun 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
    We've covered this but you insist unfortunately

    Figos peak was his last campaign for Barcelona and his first for los Blancos

    In la liga+CL combined in those seasons

    Figo scored
    23 non pen goals + 46 assists
    7922 minutes
    0.77 goal+assist per 90


    Barcelona 99/00 and real Madrid 00/01 scored a combined total of 231 goals in those competitions

    Figo was directly involved in
    30% of his teams goals

    https://fbref.com/en/players/f20f347f/Luis-Figo
    https://www.transfermarkt.com/luis-...99&verein=&liga=&wettbewerb=&pos=&trainer_id=


    In la liga+CL 15/16 and 16/17
    (Neymars best according to whoscored )

    He had
    38 non pen goals+45 assists
    7226 miniutes
    1.03 non pen goal+assist per 90


    In la liga+CL 15/16 and 16/17
    Barcelona scored 276 goals

    Neymar was directly involved in
    30%


    Identical

    Rivaldos prime being ahead of player X is totally irrelevant

    Neymar has accumulated more world class seasons that's why he is very arguably superior to Figo
    Not Because his prime was better

    Neymar is now 2 levels ahead of Figo LMAO!!!
    Its not enough for you that's hes probably as productive and more consistent
    Now hes two tiers ahead!!!

    Figo was the greatest Winger of his generation
    Neymar is the greatest Wide player of his (players below 30)


    About Rivaldo
    Neymar never had a master season from beginning till end like Rivaldo 1998/99
    Carrying his team in many games in a top tier league against top tier opponents

    If he is greater again in has to do with the fact Rivaldo gained recognition pretty late joining deportivo at 24 years old and fading into obscurity at 30 years old(post 2002 world cup)

    So he was on the radar as a top player 5-6 years max

    At his best we're just talking about a single year
    1999 Rivaldo was crazy especially at league level even though he had some great games in the champions league

    Rivaldo was complete
    Left from strike from anywhere
    Acrobatic goals
    Scored a multitude of Solo goals
    Freekicks
    Playmaking (even though he had a reputation as a soloist he had reallt great vision)

    Even if rivaldo wasn't a all time specialist in any of those categories he was world class in ALL
    And he was clutch for god sake
    Like how many times this guy save his team at crucial moments

    You know R9 scored 15 world cup goals(every body knows this)

    In 1998 he scored 4 WC goals(1 pen)

    rivaldo assisted R9s 1st WC goal against Morroco in 1998

    0.08

    Assisted his 2nd goal vs chile
    And the opener in the SF vs Holland in 1998

    All of R9s goals directly assisted by 1 player
    Each one left R9 in a 1vs1 situation and he never missed from there

    Again in tokyo
     
    Edhardy repped this.
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    1:23 that assist was crazy
    The 2 rebound assists vs Germany in the final

    6 of R9s 14 open play world cup goals were assisted by Rivaldo

    Neymar never had till this day a master season at international or club level

    To make Neymar top 50 portions of seasons have to be combined

    The first half of this
    The first third
    There is no defined peak

    All great players had defined peaks where they were dominant for the duration of a campaign
    Whether that is the duration of a league campaign or champions league or a rare combination of both

    Neymar is probably a top 50 all timer but by far the least convincing one

    We talk about del piero and we talk about the period in the late 90s where he was the most dominant champions league performer on planet earth

    Rivaldo had a great WC in 98
    A legendary la liga performance in 98/99
    A world class performance in the 99 copa America (was top scorer and MVP)
    And some good/great champions league performances in between

    This is a 12-18 month period
    That is a defined peak

    No portions here and there to create a makeshift all time great
    I mean i like Neymar but the deeper i look into it he is very much a product of his time

    He literally would not complete 1 full season in the defensive era of the PL
    2004-2009
    Or in Serie A(80s-first half 2000s)
    Im not even sure Neymar if could adapt his playing style to endure the harshness of those times(for forwards especially)

    Doing sombreros on roy Keane would maybe work once
    second time hed be in a coffin

    Tony Adams
    Jaap Stam
    Vidic

    These guys were elite defenders with a mean streak
    Even those lesser talented ones for mid table teams had to go home and watch MOTD with their kids

    How do they explain to their kids that 65 kg man was taking the piss performing sombreros and rainbow flicks on them

    Unfortunately tropiero doesn't understand the culture of competitive leagues
    As much as Neymar is a product of his time Tropiero is very much part of the recent trend of chart generated analysts

    Sofascore
    Whoscored
    xG
    xA
    =objective truth

    Maybe
    But the way you interpret that data is entirely subjective



    Graphs are devoid of context AND can only be interpreted by those who understand context
     
    Bavarian14 repped this.
  3. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Neymar damaged his carrer when he was out of Santos to make a secundary role to Messi (and then Suarez) at Barcelona.
    Neymar was a complete attacker (right, left, center, midfielder, attacker, pretty much a free role) at Santos with ~60% Goal contribution to a much more static wide left midfielder/forward at Barcelona (Suarez and Messi with free roles) with ~40% Goal contribution (he had a significant better numbers being the focal point of the team, it is not like Messi was increasing Neymar's number, but the opposite) and at PSG he is around 40-45%, but he is more a attacking midfielder at PSG than a complete attacker he was at Santos.

    Figo in the weaker Portuguese League (yes, it is weaker than Brazilian league) was nonwhere close to Neymar's Santos carrer and he had two-seasons peak at age 28 or 29 doing the same thing he did at Sporting (no positional adaptation required, he played the same way back at Sporting). He declined a lot since then being a wasteful Galático and ended at Inter with somewhat mediocre numbers.

    Rivaldo is somewhat closer and he was consistent from 1993-1994 to 2001-2002, but put Neymar as a reference in that Barcelona and he would carry Barcelona still more imo. You know I could do as you did and try to collect games that Neymar played and that Messi was not playing for Barcelona and take the average according to whoscored. I don't doubt that he was on a phenomenal level.
    Also people think Neymar was bad for the Brazilian NT and that is not true, he is the man who pretty much is carrying Brazil since 2012, 2013 with Confederation and Olympics title won, both in Brazil (Brazil's reputation in Brazil is not that good).

    The way Neymar is judged is unfair and doesn't take into account the role and the context and takes into account his extra-pitch behaviour or his antics, but I've seen many people talking about how Hazard was better than Neymar in the last world cup with Neymar out of form and with this figure: https://fbref.com/pt/matches/6fa6550c/Brazil-Belgium-2018Julho6-FIFA-World-Cup
    See his npxG, his xA, his touches on the ball, distance progressed with passes or dribbles, his shot-creation actions in that match vs Hazard's number... all are very superior, and in a normal circunstance he would generate at least 1 assist.

    I understand the point Neymar is not Pelé or probably never had the potential to be, and he is not fit all the time (struggling with injuries etc), but I still think he is underrated by the overall level of play. He rarely put a bad performance with no impact at all, in the PSG he was bad or had no significant impact in less than 10% of matches he played imo, someone could say he was bad in like 3-5 matches out of 80 he played. PSG is for French league the same thing Guardiola's Barcelona was to Spanish league.

    Now you as a portuguese would prefer for a 10-year time a Neymar-level of player in your NT or a Figo-level of player? Tell the truth.
     
  4. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    xG difference per 90, per match

    2017/18 PSG: 1.46 (2º behind Manchester City)
    2018/19 PSG: 1.43 (3° behind Bayern and City)
    2019/20 PSG: 1.82 (1º)

    That is PSG in Neymar's era.

    Data from Statsbomb.

    Barcelona with Messi in (better would be Barcelona all matches, but Statsbomb only had it in that way free, but realize that Barcelona scored goals in the same rate without Messi and Messi most often overperform his xG), 2008-12.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    2008/9: xG difference 2.62 - 0.68
    2009/10: xG difference 2.09 - 0.85
    2010/11: xG difference: 2.2 - 0.75
    2011/12: xG difference: 2.53 - 0.8

    Is it much different than PSG's dominance in Ligue 1?

    It is not like Arsenal xG difference in the 2003/4 season

    [​IMG]
    https://twitter.com/slothfulwave612
     
  5. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I don't really understand the numbers here. Care to elaborate?
     
  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Expected Goals For and Against taking into account the conditions that the shots were taken and conceded. Good teams create good opportunities and give few good opportunities to their opponents.
     
  7. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    That I understand, lol, but what do the graphs show?
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #58 carlito86, Jun 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020

    In games without messi(the closest neymar was as a main reference for Barcelona)

    Including league+champions league only


    23 goals+10 assists in 1709 minutes
    1.73 goal+assist per 90

    This is just a quick breakdown of neymars input in those games missed by Lionel messi

    3 goals+4 assists against bate borisov 15/16 and celtic 13/14(3rd rate CL teams)

    4 goals+1 assist against 18th place rayo vallencano 15/16(relegated)

    1 goal against getafe 15/16 (relegated)

    2 goals against sporting gijon 16/17 (relegated)

    1 goal against Celta Vigo 16/17(relegated)

    1 goal against granada 16/17 (relegated)

    12 goals+ 6 assists against relegated la liga teams or 3rd rate CL teams



    1709 minutes(19 games) is just way to small a sample size to definitively claim neymar could replicate messis output over a sustained period of time
    He is not durable and he is not consistent throughout a season
    He is like a flickering lightbulb
    Sometimes shining very bright in spurts other times just very dim

    I mean if i wanted to i could make Rivaldo look like better than R9 96/97 by cherrypicking matches from 3-4 seasons that he played without important players in his team


    In la liga+ CL games played by rivaldo between 98/99 to 00/01 without Patrick Kluivert

    Rivaldo scored
    22 goals+7 assists
    2141 minutes(23.7 matches)
    1.22 goal+assist per 90




    In la liga+CL games played by Cristiano Ronaldo without ozil between 2010/11 to 2012/13

    15 goals+3 assists
    828 minutes(9 matches)
    1.95 goal+assist per 90



    In la liga+CL games played by Cristiano Ronaldo without karim benzema From 2009/10 to 2014/15

    57 goals+16 assists
    3834 minutes(42.6 games)
    1.71 goal+assist per 90

    Prime Cristiano Ronaldo without karim benzema(40+ game sample size) scored+assisted at a higher rate then prime pele

    Prime Cristiano without ozil scored+assisted at a higher rate than messi with xavi

    Prime Rivaldo 98-01
    The attacking midfielder playing without kluirvert
    Scored+assisted at a higher rate then R9 96/97

    I can make pedro based on a sample size 1500 minutes look better than luis figo

    Fact is neymar could never in his life touch this over a 30+ game campaign
    That's why he is a makeshift all time great
     
  9. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Why do you two take every thread completely off topic? What does any of this have to do with this year’s Ballon d’Or?
     
    Excape Goat, AD78 and unclesox repped this.
  10. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    What is this nonsense?

    Cristiano Ronaldo was always the focal point of the team at scoring Goals with Ozil (overrated imo) with Benzema and without these guys.

    Neymar was not, he was the third option to score goals for the role he had and the area he dominated. That's why you comparasion doesn't make any sense. It is borderline stupid. Without Messi, Neymar had much more responsability at scoring goals and he was into dangerous areas much more, being the focal point of the team.

    Still 1.73 is higher than 1.22 Rivaldo's figure and Neymar was probably much more complete than Cristiano was without Benzema (1.71) as well. So we can say he also scored or assisted more than peak Pelé as well or Messi with Xavi (your argument)


    R9 numbers aren't that impressive to be honest, 34 Goals + 9 Assists in the Spanish League, it is inferior to Romário's 30 Goals + 14 Assists. The impressive about R9 is that he one a kind of one-man team and not so dependent to others services. He is probably the best 9 to create shots by himself, would be cool if I had the complete statsbomb information about this season (shot-creation action and goal-creation action via dribbles) I wouldn't be surprise if R9 was ranked higher than peak Messi in terms of dribbles leading to a shot for example. Of course he would be much more dangerous now, since the team are taking shots for better positions, more easy to score goals.

    In fact Barcelona R9 alongside 2009-12 Messi would be the most lethal combination in the last 25 years in terms of dribbling and goalscoring.

    Btw,
    Barcelona averaged 2.51 Goals in La Liga 96/97 with R9 playing and only 2.06 with Rivaldo playing in in La Liga 97/98; Rivaldo's peak. (Barcelona with Romário playing in La Liga 93-94, 2.42).

    Of all this to agree that Neymar is better than Rivaldo.
     
  11. Bruford

    Bruford Member

    Sep 23, 2012
    I agree with almost everything you wrote here, but , IIRC , la liga 96/97 had 22 teams instead of the 20. Still , its clear R9 presence had a big effect on Barcelona numbers.

    On Neymar , its funny how he was a bit overrated in ballon d'or ranking in his early years and now he has became a bit overlooked , probably as a result of injuries + annoying character. If I had to choose between R10, Rivaldo and him for my team , Neymar would be my choice.
     

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