Agreed - olders are in Mesa, youngers are in Scottsdale. I did a few games for the olders and things were pretty chill. High skill level and the kids played hard but the vibe was calm. Coaches generally in a good mood, normal soccer. Similar to ECNL events - everyone realizes these are showcases and the scores don't matter much. My original post was Saturday night after a train wreck day (mostly in 1 match). Yesterday I had another one go off the rails ... over a throw in decision. Two coaches ejected, bunch of yellows to the kids for dissent. Post match the losing team is giving us dissent, remaining coach stands there and does nothing. Similar to the discussion we had with soccerref69420 ... is it me? I like to think after 9 years I'm reasonably competent at this and fairly consistent from game to game. Sure, I have days where my positioning is better or my patience is higher but generally I believe I'm the same ref each match. In the other games these teams have - do they do the same crap and get away with it? Is there a unique flashpoint in my match that if I handled differently I would have had a better outcome? If I were running MLS Next Fest I would change the format for U13/U14 ... I believe the results don't impact their season / qualification for playoffs (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here) but there are "winners" of each group. All that does is determine who your fourth game is against (1st place teams play each other) but there's no bracket / semis / finals. We had to do KFTM for consolation matches on getaway day ... never seen that before. Had a few teams anxious to make flights that didn't want to do PKs. I think making all the games "showcases" would turn down the temperature. To be fair I met plenty of respectful coaches / parents over the 4 days. Only 3 of out my 14 matches were problematic. Heard of a few issues on other fields but nothing like my 2 big dumpster fires. Again, maybe it's me.
In these discussions where we discuss our own games I like your posts the most because you and I are really the only few who are regularly posting complete shitshows that happen to us. Like you say maybe it’s a reflection on us being poor referees, or maybe we’re just the only honest ones. With your problems at U13-14, in my experience, even with these high level teams, the younger kids behave a lot worse than the olders. You have a higher likelihood of a mass confrontation at the older levels, but the comments and things through the game definitely happens more at the youngers. It’s also a lot easier to deal with older kids because you don’t have to really walk on eggshells about how you interact with them like you do the younger kids. And for me in particular with all the cards I give, players don’t really even get much of a chance to be pissed off because by the time they think about wanting to do something to the opponent who fouled them, the card for reckless or SPA is already out and being recorded so they just say “ok refs got it” and walk away
When I'm officiating with folks I haven't seen in a long time, I'll generally ask "How is your year going?". They're not aware that I already know what happened in one of their recent games and they're proud to say "The year is going great!". When I ask, then why did you and your partners call the police for an escort to your car last week? They don't seem to be embarrassed when they're called out. Most referees cannot put their pride aside and say "Yeah, we had a rough one last night with 7 cautions and a DOGSO". Everything has to be a rosy picture. I don't pretend I understand this.
I had a HS game a few days ago. Bad HS girls team vs very bad HS girls team. The other ref (dual system) shows up in a black USSF jacket and pants. No jersey, even though I know I reffed with him last year during HS. And it was 70 degrees outside, so it's not as if he needed to bundle up to stay warm. I offered him one of my yellow jerseys, but it probably wouldn't have fit him anyway. He did roughly no running and I'm not sure if he called any fouls (although to be fair, I didn't call that many either; the game ended via mercy rule in the 2nd half). Far worse was the following day. I'm AR1 for two decent but not spectacular boys HS teams, one from about an hour away. CR is a veteran official and emeritus something or other. He's definitely letting them play. Away team had one big penalty shout in the 1st half, but that was at the far end of the field and I didn't have a good look. But overall, the away team's coaching staff is very upset with how the game is being called (even though I don't think there was a huge difference in how physical the two teams were playing). 2nd half, away team is attacking and there's a borderline DOGSO in front of me, CR rightly lets play continue for just a second or two to see if one of the other attackers can create something, no advantage materializes, whistle blows and YC comes out. Away team assistant coaches are screaming for a red. I'd love to see a replay, but my instant reaction at the moment was that it was probably a yellow due to the attacker's touch of the ball before being fouled taking the ball too far away from him and toward the GK who was coming out to the edge of the penalty area. The away team had two more appeals for a PK. One, I think, was pretty clearly just the attacker trying to lunge out and kick a loose ball, causing him to lose his balance; the other was the attacker jumping for a header inside the 18, heading it back away from the goal, and then having a GK and defender challenging for the ball make contact with the attacker. By the letter of the law you could certainly argue for a PK, but the CR was close enough to the play that I wasn't going to flag it. But all that stuff was judgment calls. If we got them wrong, I'm not happy about it, but we're not perfect. What really upset me was what ending up happening with that home team player who got the yellow card on the borderline DOGSO (the only yellow card of the match, FWIW). A few minutes after the YC he pushes an opponent away from the play. CR sees it, calls the foul. I could maybe see an argument that it wasn't hard enough to give a yellow, but it was probably bad enough that it should've gotten the kid a second yellow (and I didn't see the CR give him any lecture either). Then, with about ten minutes left in a 2-2 game, the same kid hipchecks an attacker who was trying to run around him down the touchline just a few yards away from me. It was reckless and SPA combined. I immediately flag it, start tapping my shirt pocket, and hold up two fingers to signal a 2nd YC. CR goes to his pocket, then at some point realizes that he'd have to give a red and changes his mind. He ends up talking to the kid, walking over to the bench, and has the coach sub the kid out. (Meanwhile, the fouled player also had to sub out due to injury.) To top off the match, of course the home team ends up winning an 80th minute PK on a counter attack. AR2 flagged it; I'm not sure if the CR would've called it. It looked like an obvious slide tackle that completely missed the ball and got the player; I just couldn't tell from my end of the field whether or not it was inside the 18. They convert the PK, 3-2 final score. After the match, one of the away team assistant coaches asks about the DOGSO and the potential 2nd yellow card. CR gives an explanation about DOGSO that makes no sense (admittedly, English isn't his first language); then he says that he would've given a red card in a district game, but not a non-district regular season match. That explanation might've made some sort of sense 15 years ago when your district record was the only thing that determined whether or not you made the state playoffs; but ever since we switched to a computerized power ranking system all regular season matches are the same and districts are almost meaningless (the district champ gets in automatically, but almost all district champions finish high enough in the rankings that they'd make the playoffs regardless). After the coach leaves, the CR tells me and AR2 that he doesn't like doing the paperwork. I told him that if I'm ever tapping my pocket and calling for a 2CT, I'll fill out the paperwork myself. (It's really not that bad. Go online, select the teams involved, then select the players/coaches involved, then write a brief report. It's way easier than what we have to do for USSF.) I was so upset I emailed my assignor that night. Stupid stuff like that makes all of us look bad. Our local association used to get requests for playoff assignments from other parts of the state. Now we hardly ever get them, and even two local teams will sometimes find refs from other metro areas for playoff games.
All too often, basic financial controls are not used in non-profits. Why? `1. a lot of the board/officers have no business experience with financial matters. 2. there aren't enough volunteers to implement checks and balances. Hard enough to find someone who is willing to be the treasurer, much less someone else, not related to them, to write checks and make deposits. 3. 'Good old Charlie. He's been around forever.' I'm on the board of a non-profit (not related to sports) I'm the only current member who's ever been the treasurer. The three other people who have been treasurer have left the board over our 25 years.
I was the treasurer of the HS band and orchestra boosters many years back. I don't remember writing checks but there must have been a few; perhaps we needed double signatures. After our big "tag days" weekend (basically begging all over town) there was $14000 piled on our kitchen table which I was going to take to the credit union on Monday. The check-and-balance was that volunteers counted the money that runners (other adult volunteers) picked up from each post every 2-3 hours, but no one actually checked the runners. Inevitably counting errors were made and things didn't exactly balance. Most non-profits run by volunteers pretty much trust that the others are being fiscally responsible. That's how $40M went missing from the Detroit Riverfront Conservancy. Fortunately they caught the guy, but a lot of the money was gone. It almost doomed the parks and river walk projects they were working on.
Just before my time, let's say 'back in the 20th century, the senior referees realized that the SRA was embezzling the referee funds. (I don't think there even was a SRC back then.) He had a soccer supply store out on the edge of town. To register, you could only do so at his store and pay in cash. No checks, no credit cards. USSF was pretty haphazard in those days about getting badges and books out, so some people didn't think too much about why they didn't get a badge and book for the new year. He was pocketing the cash on some people and not submitting their form to Chicago. He seemed to have not submitted forms from people he didn't like, but this only became apparent much later. Eventually, the senior referees agreed which of them would become the new SRA, new SDA, et al. They then went as a group to his store and told him that they knew what he was doing. He could resign now or they would involve the police. He signed and the Adult and Youth officially named them to the agreed positions. When I became SRA, about 10 years later, after my predecessor was named to a national committee, I heard the story. One of the veterans, who had done games in the (original) NASL, was now at the point where he could be recognized for his years of service. You needed 20 years of continuous registration as a USSF referee in order to qualify. (He already had some other qualifications.) You would then get free registration for life. Chicago turned him down. It seems that he didn't have 20 years of continuous registration because that guy had not submitted his registration one year. Chicago turned a deaf ear on our appeals for extenuating circumstances and the guy chose to stop refereeing. And the bad guy's son was playing O-40 in the local men's league. Anytime I did his team's game, he would walk by and pretend to be talking to someone else on the team, as he said "Yeah, we got a complaint in on THIS referee."
So these 8 paragraphs could have been summarized with a single sentence “the referee in a game with me didn’t give deserved red cards because he told me he doesn’t want to do the paperwork so I reported him”, yes that’s justified
One of my friends vented to me years ago that younger referees don't really take the feedback seriously. He was at an event (DA I think) where everything was assessed. He'd hear refs talking to friends saying things like, "My game went really well." "The assessor said it was really good." Meanwhile, my friend knew that this guy had missed a DOGSO, that guy had given a yellow to the wrong player, etc. Self evaluation is the hardest part of becoming a better referee. At various stages I've, not taken game management results seriously in self reflection, dwelled on decisions for days, ignored feedback from an assessor I didn't like. I can now self evaluate and be done with it by the time I get back to the house/hotel. This allows me to be a normal person when I talk to the Mrs. while filing away anything to watch online for my next work day lunch time.
Here's why I do this: 1. That's the social norm. Saying anything other than "fine" or "good" is weird, though I sometimes deviate anyway. 2. Talking about games that go to shit reflects poorly on the referee. People are incredibly judgmental about this kind of thing. Particularly when they don't know 99% of what happens at your games, when what they do know about a game that you did is it went to hell, they are likely to lose respect for you.
There's a middle ground here. If someone I don't know all that well asks me how my games have been going, I'll say they've been good, just like I would answer an acquaintance's "how are you" question with "fine," because they don't really know or care about my life's shenanigans. And I do agree with @Law6 that gossip travels, and if I don't know you, I don't know what happens if I share with you. That said, it's useful to have people you can reflect (and vent, and brag) with, with whom you can ask real questions and get real answers. Also I'm not sure why you're calling people out that you haven't seen in a long time - what is anyone gaining from that? - but it's your personal choice, I guess.
I thought the policy was 25 consecutive years to where USSF pays for your registration. Anyways. Is that policy still in place? There was one guy in my state who tried to get it and Rick Eddy basically turned him down? Do you know anyone that has gotten that?
When I went to regionals people pointed out to me "see that guy, he's been SRA/SYRA for like 30 years." A lot of the thievery is actually above board. Cal South pays there SRA a pretty generous salary allegedly. So instead of just siphoning funds under the table, these state organizations have gone the legitimate non-profit route and pay themselves obscenely bloated salaries or justify everything as an "expense" (i.e. expensing a vacation in Hawaii on state referee association money). Pasting my post from the other thread as it is more appropriate under "Bad stories" than best stories. In my years of doing this now I've realized that there can be a lot of crooks, scumbags, and flat out unethical people involved in soccer referee administration (USSF and high school). All kinds of horror stories of siphoned and stolen money. Before my state referee association really got organized around the late aughts (2007-2010), it was just a giant black box in terms of what happened to all the money we got from registration fees. It was a massive effort to clean up the books and no one really knows how much money might have been siphoned for personal use. A couple of horror stories. One of the SYRAs in my state association was involved in mortgage fraud and had apparently a criminal record and was struggling to pass the background check to get his national badge (he ended up getting it). When he was SYRA, apparently funds went missing. He ended up getting fired. One of the youth assignors/field coordinators apparently was saying he was at two fields at once so he could get the field coordinating fee amongst other things. Apparently this guy was in such bad financial shape that he ended up committing armed robbery and ended up getting killed while trying to rob a local credit union. I remember someone sent me a link So instructors just pocketing referee registration fees is not a surprise. Plus, there are the other horror stories of the non-white collar/financial crime type. Predators, sex offenders, and just flat out perverts in the referee community.
Just wanted to point out the double standard there is when it comes to players messing up vs. refs after this weekend even though it’s NFL, not soccer. Ravens-Steelers, rookie kicker misses the game winning field goal that keeps ravens from playoffs. Players and coach supporting him, fans supporting him, those fans that are giving him death threats get hate about how they’re idiots, he’s human and humans make mistakes, etc. Meanwhile, every time a referee misses a call, there’s never support, they’re screamed at, called incompetent openly by players and coaches, they’re compromised by the gambling companies, every time a ref misses a call they should be punished and demoted, there’s no accountability for their incompetence, the refereeing in every sport in the world is the worst it’s ever been, etc etc etc
You forgot the part about the coach getting fired, which wouldn't have happened if the rookie had made the kick. Not saying that's the *only* reason the coach got fired, but if that kick gets made, John Harbaugh is still employed.
Employed for at least one week. If he were to lose the wildcard game, it's possible (but less likely) that he might have still been fired. He's not the only coach that's rumored to be potentially fired if they lose in the first round. As far as the gambling aspect goes - there's a number of incidents in recent days (in multiple sports) where people have questioned whether or not betting lines came into play. Late FG's and baskets that were meaningless except for the betting lines, in football and basketball come to mind.
This has nothing to do with my point. I also saw that fans were donating to the kickers charity organization he works with in sympathy. You’ll never see people support a referee who missed a call in this manner. A kicker (really the only position on the field that can be analogous to a referee) misses a huge kick and everyone runs to his defense. A ref misses a call, it’s nonstop vitriol
I'm not sure why this would be surprising. If I'm Irish, would I feel bad that the referee missed Thierry Henry's hand ball to knock them out of the World Cup? Would I donate to his charitable organizations after that game? As referees, we explained to fans how something like this could easily be missed pre-VAR, but it doesn't matter how hard you try. No one is there to cheer on referees. The rare times I've heard the words "sympathy" and "referee" in the same sentence is when an official is injured on the field, not because of a missed call or perceived missed call.
I am aware of all this. It’s just funny to see. Kickers are the position that feel the most what it’s like to be a referee when they make that one error that might cost a team a game. But it’s just funny to see everyone rally around this guy and break out the “he’s human, he shouldn’t be treated like this”, but if a ref makes a mistake, or even just a perceived mistake, they demand his head, they want him fired, it’s a sign of clear corruption in sports, etc.
Two big reasons. A player missing a kick looks like failure of skill. A referee missing a call feels like a bad decision, and people emotionally interpret bad decisions as negligence, bias, or incompetence, even when they’re not. Players wear a team's colors. Refs wear neutrality. So empathy flows one direction. When a player fails, fans see themselves. When a ref "fails", fans see an outsider interfering.
I think it also has a LOT to do with the fact that players/teams have fans that will support them, while the referees do not. I'm not making excuses, just stating that it's more than just feeling bad for a player but not a ref.