Backing up an AR that you know is wrong

Discussion in 'Referee' started by SA14mars, Aug 28, 2012.

  1. SA14mars

    SA14mars Member+

    Jan 3, 2005
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So this happened back in April and I just now thought to post it. Preseason youth tournament, u13 girls I think (they were little), I'm new to the area and have never worked with either of my ARs. I do my usual pregame, including what I usually call and don't call and how I want them to apply that to fouls. Game is fine. No harsh challenges, barely any fouls. White is ahead. Near the end of the game blue keeper punts ball up field and as I turn to run my AR pops his flag and taps his badge. I am near the top of the penalty arc. Before I've gone 5 yards he yells out that I need to caution White #XYZ. He says this so loud that the coaches on the next field notice and look over. All eyes on me I continue over and ask him what it was for. He says that White's elbow hit a Blue defender in the face as she turned to run up field. At this point I don't know what to do because I feel it's trifling but he's already told the world it's not. I end up giving the card but in hindsight I wish I had figured out a way around it. Any advice for the future?
     
  2. Quad237

    Quad237 Member

    Aug 16, 2011
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Pregame Pregame Pregame, I know its cliche

    Depends on how you covered this in your pre-game. If you had explained to your AR in your pre-game a specific procedure on how to communicate his opinion that a player needed a card, and he did not follow that procedure, then that is a serious failing on the part of your AR and he needs to be shown how bad that error can turn a good game sour. On the other hand if you failed to detail such procedures in your pregame, well then you have only your self to blame for this awkward situation...

    Its because of situations just like the one you described that we as instructors and assignors constantly harp on referees to have a thorough and detailed discussion before every match.
     
  3. oldreferee

    oldreferee Member

    May 16, 2011
    Tampa
    I have 2 pictures in my head. Maybe one will apply to your situation.

    1) The AR is a kid, desperate for your approval and to exert his authority. Maybe he got the highest score in the class on his test.
    1a) Sometimes those kids are actually smart enough to work themselves back out of the problems they create. I chat with them. Ask them if they have any other suggestions for how to handle this situation, and let them announce to the world what is going to happen next: "Drop ball. Coach, please explain to #12 that she has to keep her elbows to herself."
    1b) Sometimes they are self-important little turds that need to learn a harsh lesson. If today is the day...well. Of course, that probably would have meant that you had given up on them prior to the flag and would just publicly wave them down.

    2) A more mature AR who just doesn't have a lot of experience with the sport.
    I had an adult AR flag for handling when a keeper was punting....6 in out of the box in a 1-1 game with 5 min to go. Unfortunately, I didn't realize what the flag was for until he announced it to the world. To his credit, he was able to accept my decision to re-start with a drop ball. The coach, not so much. He wanted that DFK. I ended up dismissing him a couple of min later when I called a foul against his team. AR and I chatted for a good while after the game, and I think it was a good learning experience for him.
     
    dadman, Law5 and socal lurker repped this.
  4. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    In my pre game always.....If you need me, call me over and we will discuss what you need. Use my first name as you will be the only one in the match who will use my first name. I will know it is important.
     
    dadman repped this.
  5. Paper.St.Soap.Closed

    Jul 29, 2010
    OldRef has some great advice and I agree with him that what you do depends on the "type" of AR you have. For me, the key is to make the discussion as private as possible. If you decide (for whatever reason) that you need to overrule the AR, make a point of ending that conversation with "nod your head." That way, the referee team looks to be in agreement. Sure, that trick won't always work, but it's worth a shot.

    I've been in the same spot as you several times and I have to remind myself that in the order of things, the Game is more important than the Referee crew. If you can support your crew without doing disservice to the game, go for it. But if it really is a BS card, simply let your AR know that you appreciate the feedback but we're restarting with a dropped ball.
     
    IASocFan and BTFOOM repped this.
  6. BTFOOM

    BTFOOM Member+

    Apr 5, 2004
    MD, USA
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    He always does. Like reading his posts and agree with you that the discussions among the refereeing crew need to be as private as you can. Like the idea of the 'nod your head'.

    If there were one quote that I could put at the top of the Referee AND Coach forums, it would be the above in bold. The game is for the players; we as referees and coaches are there to assist with the playing of the game, but in the end, it is the game that matters most.

    If necessary, refs need to swallow hard and make the correct decisions, even if it means slightly embarrassing a member of their own crew.
     
    IASocFan, dadman, SccrDon and 1 other person repped this.
  7. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    We want to get the decisions right and look great doing it. But, if we can't do both, choose to get the decision right. Oldref has pretty much nailed it. I'll also point to the original post's statement that he's new to the area. That makes it even more of a reputation builder or reputation destroyer. You have no accumulated credibility reserves with either the teams or the AR's. So choose to do the right thing, rather than the 'team' thing.

    Theoretically, yes, we need to do a (more) thorough pre-game. But let's get real. It's U-13 girls and its a tournament, so you probably got eight minutes between games and you still have to do the toss and find the game balls, which will, inevitably, be under-inflated, the field's behind schedule because of an injury two games ago, etc.

    This is a situation in which you both stand facing the field and you and talk to your AR, calmly asking him what he saw, whether it was careless, reckless or excessive force, etc. After you have the information, tell him to let you come over first when he taps his badge, rather than announcing his recommendation to the entire world. Then go do the right thing.
     
    IASocFan and BTFOOM repped this.
  8. rkucenski

    rkucenski Member

    Sep 23, 2011
    Flower Mound TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    My favorite is the opposite. You are AR1 in front of the coach trying to support/explain a "not so good" referee. One that is calling triffling things, calling ball to hand, not calling bad challenges, etc. Sometimes it takes every bit of professionalism to keep from agreeing with the coach.
     
  9. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    "I dunno Coach — I can't see any better than you can from way over here."
     
    sjquakes08 and BTFOOM repped this.
  10. BTFOOM

    BTFOOM Member+

    Apr 5, 2004
    MD, USA
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    "Here you go, ref," <hands ref my sun-glasses> - "See if they work any better for you than me <Laugh and thank him for at least listening to me>.
     
  11. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    "Coach, he's right there and had a good look to make the call." [doesn't opin on the merits; dam concept, but I don't like setting up his next comment for when I flag and the coach says "but you can't see it from over there!"]

    "That's been a foul all day, coach." [doesn't say whether it has correctly been called a foul all day]

    "Coach, I was watching the offside line, not the ball." [Yup, this one is the complete copout]
     
    sjquakes08 repped this.
  12. Eastshire

    Eastshire Member+

    Apr 13, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Not when it's true.
     
  13. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

    Mar 2, 2012
    Yep, Atlanta
    Club:
    Atlanta United FC
    "Sorry Coach, I took my eye off the field to see if you were standing on the touchline again, so I wouldn't knock you down."
     
    IASocFan and Sachsen repped this.
  14. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Fair enough -- I meant more in terms of not really providing any support of what the referee did. The first two lines imply that the complaint is invalid, where as the "watching the OS line" comment is simply ducking the issue completely.
     
  15. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    "What is he calling???!!!!!"
    "I have no idea." I mean, what's the coach going to say to that? Hey, I'm just telling him that nobody standing where we're standing could see what happened! If he thinks I'm an idiot for not knowing, he must be one too!!! And I didn't give him any half-baked explanation of what I think happened that he could then argue with. When I pulled this on a coach (think of a current MLS coach :cool: ), he was completely, uncharacteristically silent.
     
    soccerking1990 repped this.
  16. DWickham

    DWickham Member

    Dec 26, 2003
    San Diego
    There are other ways to convey nothing critical of the referee, while remaining empathetic.
    Unlike a fourth official, however, the AR needs to stay focused on play and not on conversation.

    "I saw what you saw"
    "I'm sure you are right, but that's not what I saw."
    "We'll discuss that at half-time."
     

Share This Page