Attendance's impact of Chivas MLS.

"The name doesnt matter. I, like many others, will not trade in my jersey for that of another. Thats is pathetic if people are willing to give up thier jersey.

There are only 2 jerseys i would ever wear, the Mexican National jersey and Club AMerica's jersey. I wouldnt dare of putting on another."

I think it's far too simplistic to negate the very real socio-cultural realities that affect evolving allegiances that are tested by mass movements of people in late Capitalist societies, most notably in those that are converting from an agricultural based pre-modern economy to a post-modern metropol. In layman's terms, as millions of ppl move from one region or country to another region or country, allegiances to sports teams evolve, especially when the homeland farmland ain't got no local team with which to align. The metropol team and the national team end up representing for the masses a "tribe" w/ which to align. Now, as mass movements of ppl occur, these masses take their designated tribe (a version of the very Enlightenment notion of self-designated nationalism) along w/ them. However, a great many have their allegiances EVOLVE with time and they affiliate w/ new tribes.

Case in point: my girlfriend's family is all about Chivas. They're from a town near Irapuato. Everybody's hoping Irapuato does well this year. And if they stay in the top league, they'll be converted to followers. But they primarily root for Chivas. And they are interested in Chivas MLS. They'll go to games. Should we blame them to be proud that their small town now has a first division
team? Are they any LESS for being fans of their favorite team's representation in the US? OR, are they futbol fans who enjoy the game and want to support it in the US b/c FINALLY somebody is actually making a bold attempt to market to US Latinos?

Now, I know this example highlights shifting allegiances within MFL, which would seem to contradict my point. But my point is that ppl shift their allegiances based on a host of factors. It's too simplistic to negate this and call them "non-fans" to begin with. I think most fans of MLS would prefer to have true soccer fans come on board, not ppl who are fans of one club and a national team. They are fans of tribes, not the sport. If and when we can get the MILLIONS of footie fans converted, MLS will begin to shine.

We all know that there are Chivas fans that will categorically reject Chivas MLS. That's understandable. But there ARE Chivas fans who will welcome the opportunity to root for the most popular team in Mexico.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Chivas will be just another team. So they had better get themselves their own NEW SSS.

However, start changing the rules and allow them to have more Hispanics on their team, or less whites, blacks, asians, or anyone else, I will be at every game they play (ok, not quite). And literally, they won't know what hit them or where it came from.

Discrimination isn't always against a minority. It can be against whites, blacks, and anyone else. In this case, it would be against everyone else.

 

I don't know your girlfriend or her family, much less the dynamics of their soccer allegiances, I wouldn't presume to judge weather they are "Real" Chivas Fans or Not...

But I will say this...

Once the colors of that jersey seep into your skin... man, there is nothing, ever, that will make u look elsewhere. And if u move to another town or country, you may like other teams, but when you see your team take the field again or score a goal, you know where your loyalties are.

At least thats what happened to me when I lived in the US (I'm back in Mexico now, I was a Tigre over there, I'm a Tigre here, and will be a Tigre till the day I die).

I guess its different when you have a young league... and people are "looking for their place in the world"...I've never lived through that... My entire life there's been Chivas, Tigres, Monterrey, Cruz Azul, America...Etc... My family home becomes a somewhat of a battlefield every weekend, I'm the only Tigre in it, my dad and brothers are Monterrey followers, my uncles are Cruz Azul's and so on...and I never knew anyone beyond the age of 10 who would shift allegiance... Not even when their teams are relegated... (believe me I know)... So its hard for me and many of us who come from places where football is ingrained into the culture, to understand this.

LOL... that just doesn't exist where I come from...I will sit and watch a nice soccer match between any two teams in the world...(yes, including MLS Teams)...But I am a Tigres Fan and a Tri fan first and foremost.

Saludos,

Arturo

 

Fortunately, Chivas MLS won't be in direct competition w/ Chivas Guadalajara to test the new teams' fans' loyalty.

But you have no problem overlooking the fact that these apparently "fierce" allegiances fall to the wayside when a team gets relegated and attendance plumets. Where are the fans? Are they all 10 year olds who now suddenly lose interest? Or are they adults less interested in watching an inferior product? I believe that it's the latter. This proves my point: allegiances shift due to a large range of factors. A team no longer playing at the premier level makes fans adjust their viewing habits, all the while holding dear to their heart a specific team.

Even though the US isn't a footie fanatic nation according to A.) world perception B.) Anglophone media outlets, the fact remains that there's a significant # of soccer fans here. Apart from the suburban soccer leagues, there are 32-33 million Latinos from footie fanatic nations (this excludes Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Nicaraguans, Panamanians and Venezuelans, most of which claim baseball as the #1 national sport), plus a large number of immigrants from all over the footie globe. This is the reason why we hosted the most successful WC ever and the 2 most successful soccer tournaments in Olympic history. These fans didn't show up just to watch their country play. Salvadoreans went to watch the US play Colombia, Germans went to watch Spain play Italy, etc. They are fans of the beautiful game, and if the product is worth their attention, they'll respond accordingly.

 

"I think most fans of MLS would prefer to have true soccer fans come on board, not ppl who are fans of one club and a national team."

So you fit into the description. You like watching a good game. You're a fan of the game. It's just that some ppl are posting comments in this and other threads that I know to be false. If they are so passionate about their club and MNT, how can they NOT watch the finals of the World Cup? They make it sound like when England played Argentina in '98, that they wouldn't even have given the game a glance b/c their MFL team wasn't playing or Mex. National team. I was in the airport in Guadalajara, Mexico during that game, and not a single soul was doing anything BUT watching that game. It was exciting. It was quality footie. It was dramatic. No true soccer fan is going to resist such a game b/c they are fans of the game, not exclusively one club or one nation.

Go ahead and keep your Tigres allegiance. I wouldn't want to take that from you. But if you're ever in the US, come check out a game. That's all we ask.

 

Tigres was relegated for the 96-97 Season (if I remeber correctly) ... The Universitario Stadium has a capacity of abround 42,000; On any given regular season game, Tigres will draw around 38 - 40,000; the average attendance for the 96-97 Season was around 36-38,000... not much difference...

I went to all the home games myself, both liguillas games AND both finals... we the Fans rallied behind our team in time of need and the team responded getting the promoted back for the 97-98 season (and staying there)...

There is a second team in Monterrey (Monterrey FC no less) I never knew one peson to change allegiance (from Tigres to Monterrey) do to the relegation...

Definately, especially when Tigres takes the field...

I lived in Cincy for a couple of years... went to a couple of Crew games... the games were ok... what turned me off was the crowd (or the lack thereof)... (I guess I like the en masse chanting TOO MUCH)... lol...

 

In my experience [which is limited, b/c Barca has never been relegated ] attendance typically tapers off significantly as teams sell off their top players. Also, clubs lower the prices to encourage ppl to stick w/ the team.

The clubs that rarely get demoted tend to get back w/in a season or two, as they have the fan base to weather the storm. As you've pointed out, fan base is pivotal for the system to work.

And from the MFL games I've seen of late, there are large patches of empty seats in relatively small multi-purpose stadias, and often times the stadias are not even half-full. No matter, many leagues pad their numbers. (I'm NOT suggesting that Tigres does so, btw.)

MLS is beginning to gain some steam w/ regards to the "porras" to which you refer. W/ the new soccer specific stadia coming in w/ roofs to trap in the noise, this will be more and more the case. Part of the problem is that the US is not a homogenous nation like most others, so the cheering sections must go through a development phase as we try to marry 2 distinctive styles: Europe vs. Latin America. But then again, isn't that the project of soccer in the US? Eventually we'll get there.

 

These remarks are patently absurd and nothing but jingoistic bull****.

And if I find you or anybody else throwing **** at the muchachos, I'll feed you a knuckle sandwich.

 

My 2 questions, with 3 parts each...

1) Will America fans in the US...

a) Come out to games and cheer against Chivas MLS because they're affiliated?

b) Come out to games and cheer for Chivas MLS because they're Mexican? If so, and they already supported an MLS side, will they stop supporting them?

c) Do nothing different?


2) Will non-America, non-Chivas fans (Toluca, Morelia, Pumas, etc.)....

a) Come out to games and cheer against Chivas MLS because they're affiliated?

b) Come out to games and cheer for Chivas MLS because they're Mexican? If so, and they already supported an MLS side, will they stop supporting them?

c) Do nothing different?


I will hang up and listen to your response.

 

IMHO, The answer in both cases should be:

d) Those who like the team's playing will cheer for, those who don't will cheer against.

I don't know the wisdom behind attempting (if they actually do it) to field only mexican-amercan or hispanic players... Race (or racism) is a BIG issue in the US, it really is not at all in Mexico, and I don't think that ChivasUSA owners realize the extent of this issue -they probably don't even understand it or have insight into it- and the possible consequences...(this in response to the dude who already feels discriminated against)

Saludos,

Arturo

 

I think Chivas will be, hands down, the most utterly despised team in US sports. All the pent-up frustrations of the US footie fan, mistreated by Mexican fans, will take out their frustrations on Chivas. All the ppl that rightfully are pissed off by the racial divisiveness the team is "selling", will show up to cheer their team vs. Chivas MLS

Is that a bad thing?

Yes to all of the above, to varying degrees. Vergara is trying to get press for his team. Obviously, he's doing a spectacular job. This will get the attention of other clubs fans, and some will show up to root for or against. I've got friends that fit into all 3 categories above.

 

TOTALLY AGREE.

 

This is an interesting post. It is a debate similar to, "Will SSS in the US raise attendance?" This has been the case in LA, I think, but then Soldier field has two great crowds after the Fire moved back from Naperville. I would like to see a team like Chivas USA bring in bigger crowds at every venue. I think it might, but only time will tell.

Another thing to think about is, if there are Mexican fans at every Chivas road game, will Chivas be rivals with every MLS team?

 

Dont understand the question... isn´t every team in the MLS rival to every other team?

 

I guess my only concern about this whole situation is the home team's around the league attendance atmosphere. Sure, there will be more people in the stands when they play against Chivas, but what kind of experience will it be like for home fans of the Wizards or the Crew when they are outnumbered in their own home stadium? Will the first-timers to those matches feel compelled to come back again when people are cheering (or throwing things on the field) when the visiting team scores, or booing when their home team does? It could make for a bad experience for the real MLS fans. Hopefully this will not be the case, but let's be quasi-realistic.

Other than that, I think it's ridiculous to allow MLS Chivas to operate under any rules different than it employs with its ten teams now. Colorado was just bought by someone knew - Garber should stay the course because what he's been doing has been working. It shouldn't be necessary to bend over backwards to accomodate Chivas in MLS. If Vergara wants in, he should do it under the existing league rules. If not, there will be more investors in the future if MLS stays patient and continues to grow at its steady pace.

 

I have to think that Chivas USA could be worth about a 2000 league wide attendance boost.
so yay for MLS.

but like mentioned above, will people want to come back to games in SanJose after being out cheered in their already quiet stadium. I would think that in certain markets, the idle fan will come in strong for their home team. i would definately think that Chicago would respond in force and out cheer the 4-5000 mexican chivas fans on hand.

I think this could also lead to the need for Away fans sections.

Dueling supporters groups.

other MFL fans supporting their local MLS club simply due to their hatred of Chivas. hell yeah. I really couldnt imagine a life long yankees fan rooting for the Red Sox even if they were playing a Nazi all star team for world domination. I would have to say that the yankees fans would always want their rival to loose no matter what. Now if a Yankees fan moved to london, and london got a Baseball team I think that eventually said yankees fan would start cheering for the local team. especially when they play the Red sox.
so why wouldnt a club America fan go to cheer for the metros to beat the Chivas in their newly adopted city? Now if a Club America joined the league they would instandly revert to their loyalties. even if the Metros played them in a friendly, they would revert. but their kids may grow up more loyal to the metros.

anyhoo, a 2000 league wide attendance boost would be great for the league no matter what.

hwll if somehow the Chivas pull 40k/game in SD, and have abother 5k at each road game that could mean a 7k attendance boost. not that I at all expect it, but it COULD happen. this could force the Galaxy to expand the HDC, and the Burn to add on and the crew to add on. who knows

I personally would prefer the addition of Chivas and club America at the same time. SD, and SA would be good market additions, and i think attendance would be up signifigantly.

and in the next wave of expansion add 2 "normal" non affiliated cities. If houston were one, there would be some serious crowds supporting the away team for SD/SA. and in LA too. you could guarntee sell outs in LA and H-town(depending on stadium size) when those mexican clubs played the home team.

It sure would be interesting, and I am an unabashed optimist.

so who ever knows

 

As nice as this might be for attendence, its so horribly wrong if the rules get changed for this team. I dont think there's anyone on here who can honestly find some sort of reasoning as to why it would be fair or right to give this team more alloted foreigners then the others. I agree with those who say this will be the most despised team in sports. I have no doubt in my mind that this team will be hated.

So since its not going to be a "Junior" team, or a farm team of some sort.....how comes the need to have more spanish players? This a gimmick gone horribly wrong. In theory, Mexican fans will flock to see this "Chivas" team because its Mexican and has a bunch of noname players of Mexican descent on it with maybe one or two stars. What gives it any real ties to the real Chivas, outside of the similar owner and the same name? Its a total gimmick. For MLS to be taken seriously, we can't have these sorts of gimmicks and rule changes for random teams coming into the league. And besides, this is the United States...where its illegal to discriminate against sex, RACE, financial situations, religion, ETHNICITIES, and various other differences that make this country what it is. This whole Chivas USA thing reaks of something foul.

 

I start from the premise that the MLS needs to build fan interest and put people in the seats. In order to accomplish this it needs to be creative and bold within the context of its established rules.
If CHIVAS is limited to the same number of internationals as any other side how can you complain?
What I truly hope is that CHIVAS US can be a mechanism to bring more hispanic fans into the seats. I wouldn't mind if a large number of their players were hispanic-north americans, look at MLS rosters and look into the stands. What's missing to a great extent is American born latinos especially Mexican - Americans.
Will CHIVAS succeed. Ultimatley it depends on the quality of the team on the field. If this team succeeds we all win Anglo and Latino alike.

 

Hey...I agree. But judging from recent rumors, MLS might lift the number of SI's for this Chivas USA team which would be horribly unfair. Thats the only questions I raise. What they do with their salary cap room and the players they choose to sign is their business, but to change the rules for only 1 team? thats insane. But I also think the number of SI's for everyone should be raised. So some good might end up coming out of this

 

And by down do you mean up?

 

huh???

You must be smokin the good stuff.

 

Maybe someone who knows Mexican futbol could answer a question for me.

Would most Mexicans in the US back Chivas USA or would only Mexicans who grew up backing the original Chivas support Chivas USA?

In other words is the Galaxy doomed to loose all of its Mexican fans to Chivas USA or would "non-Chivas Mexicans" in LA stick with the Galaxy and cheer the defeat of Chivas USA?

Thanks