Atrocities Scoredard: Communism vs. Capitalism vs. Religion

True, dat.

 

Re: Re: Re: Atrocities Scorecard: Communism vs. Capitalism vs. Religion

OK, but then there's the question of how to apportion blame between whitey and darky. And the amount you give to darky, is that communism, capitalism, religion, or other?

Plus, I find it offensive and borderline racist to depict the Africans as all helpless faceless victims. Especially when it ain't true.

 

I would add a third flaw in that the drivers of unnatural death (war, famine and pestilence) have shown up fairly frequently in the political, economic and religious systems that I am aware of. The specific philosophical justifications used by a Caligula, Torquemada or Stalin are probably less important than their desire and ability to wage war on their own people, as well as anybody else who was handy by. Religion, politics and economics provide justifications, not motives.

Another problem: What of strong social forces that don't fit neatly into those three categories, such as nationalism. When you're assigning responsibility for WWII, the top two suspects should be Nazism and Japanese nationalism. Stalinism (not communism) should be in there somewhere; afterall, there was nothing in Das Kapital that told Stalin to debilitate his military structure by sending most of his officer corp to the Gulag. Not until you get to the Versaille Treaty do I see a causative role in WWII for communism, capitalism or religion, and capitalism was the only of those three that figured at Versailles.

 

Joe, we agree. Yes, I'm feeling fine. There's a first time for everything, and hopefully not the last.

 

If you don't hold communism responsible for Stalin, then you can't hold religion responsible for Islamofascism or the Crusades and you can't hold capitalism responsible for whatever crimes have been committed in its name.

And you might have a valid point, in that ideologies don't kill people, people acting in the names of ideologies kill people. But can you name me one democratic country that has implemented communism (not socialism)? No, because communism can't function in a democratic society.

"Communists are people who read Marx; capitalists are people who understand Marx"

 

This indicates that we have a clearly different definition of "communism." In my definition, communism cannot be "implemented." It simply happens as mankind grows up. Your definition of communism I would define simply as the totalitarian version of socialism. Totalitarian ANYTHING, I think we can agree, is likely horrible for regular humans. Well, you'd probably advocate for totalitarian capitalism, but that's because you think the insight below is edifying...

I could just as easily say - and just as easily be dismissed - "Capitalists are people that understand that communists understand something they have yet to grasp, and thus despise them for a level of insight that illuminates the latter, and casts in penumbra the former."

But, again, I don't agree with the notion that a person, region or nation can flick a switch and exhibit "communism." Communism is a withering away of the state reflective of humanity growing up.

If you're grounded in Judeo-Christianity, for example, you can never anticipate communism, for humanity is as it always shall be, and these "isms" are just playing games until the Rapture.

So I guess its more than JoePak's "definitions" argument...it really distills to belief.

 

Unless you are identifying democracy with capitalism, this question can't possibly be relevant to the discussion at hand. No one who posts here is claiming that democracy is inherently harmful.

Of the countries that have implemented communism (by which I assume you mean as opposed to those that had it forced on them), I know that in Russia, China and Vietnam, the communists overthrew corrupt, secular governments. It's unlikely that any qualified as capitalist except the French in Vietnam, they sure weren't socialist or democratic.

 

I think people come up with reasons for violence after the fact. You couldn't get a business card between the doctrinal differences between the factions in Northern Ireland. Orwell correctly pointed out in "Animal Farm" that Stalin quickly grew to resemble his predecessors. Spain and the United States killed a remarkable number of Indians, but probably germs had as much to do with that as anything. "Nomadism" should get some points for Genghis Khan, and the fall of the Roman Empire.

In the words of the late Douglas Adams, "People are a problem."

 

We didn't allow a vote in Vietnam in the 50s because we knew the Commies would win.

We overthrew Allende and ?Mossadegh? for being commies.

 

There is an awful lot of conflation between political and economic systems going down here.

That said, calling Stalinism "communism" is rather like calling the current English parlimentary system a "monarchy".

 

Re: Re: Atrocities Scorecard: Communism vs. Capitalism vs. Religion

but deaths is not the lone criteria... virus and bacteria gets a big fat 0 in the "overall evil" portion of the competition

 

You obviously aren't a believer in paranoid conspiracy theorys!

Then again, how do you score "overall evil" except by loss or degredation of life? Assuming, of course, that this scorecard thing works at all. I'm with the skeptics on that one.

If you are going to assign 'evil' points to religions or political or economic systems based on what happened during their dominance, then you need to at least suggest, if not prove, that the manifestations of evil (death and/or degredation of human lives) wouldn't have happened anyway. Folks like Stalin and Torquemada didn't so much create as take advantage of belief structures that were handy by.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Atrocities Scorecard: Communism vs. Capitalism vs. Religion

i've got a better, quicker idea... why don't you explain how germs can be evil

 

I 100% agree with this. I alluded to this in another thread where people were comparing Christians to Muslims in terms of terrorist activity. People who do things find reasons to do what they want by distorting, omititng, or paraphrasing political, financial, or religious theories.

 

Who were those polacks or bohunks who used to kill everybody in site, and then drive stakes through the horses, and then through the men, and set them up along some road.?

I think they were the worst.

 

The pre-reservation Segroves clan.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Atrocities Scorecard: Communism vs. Capitalism vs. Religion

a germ is evil? hmmm... nah i'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one - no amount of crazy talk is gonna put germs on equal moral footing as... oh... hitler? the church leaders who overlooked the fact that some of their priests were habitually raping children? sadaam? pol pot? darth vader?

c'mon dude, be for real for once

 

Re: Atrocities Scorecard: Communism vs. Capitalism vs. Religion

Why is it I feel this is a “Springer-esque” question? I was hoping this would be an academic question – but I feel otherwise. I mean, hell; as a westerner it's soooooo easy to blame not just one but all three of those groups!

Just too general of a question and it panders to those who know best about individuals civilizations and their atrocities...And you, as well as I, know that all three of groups of philosophies (or whatever you call them) are equally guilty.

Which, was your goal to state this fact is my guess; so props J – however, also this distinction of ‘most atrocious’ is muddied in global histories.

I have my preconceived notions as well as a myriad of preconceived historical events – but I just don’t think this is a fair question - - how do you measure such atrocities? On measurement and classification alone you pose a very difficult scientific challenge… I.e. this is not something that is easily quantified. I mean when it comes to atrocities alone you’re not naming enough sources. And even if between these 3 groups: you raise more questions then you give answers.

Basically I think the question you pose is oversimplified and full of fallacies. But I think you had a good purpose on posing this questions – and perhaps I’m playing semantics – but something about this question you ask bothers me…

Peace,
Emil

 

Good post. Is there any doubt that people are the problem when we keep small pox around just in case we want to use it?

I suspect a number of people here would like to put "god" at #1 on the list, but that requires belief in one.

I totally disagree with Universal's conclusion that religion is No. 1 ... man w/religion or man w/o religion = no difference. Corrupting power comes in a wide variety of flavors and colors.

 

Re: Re: Atrocities Scorecard: Communism vs. Capitalism vs. Religion

Who gets the points for the Black Death? Bacteria/Virus or Nomad Empire expanisionism. After all, the Black Death came to Europe from a Black Sea port that contracted the disease when the Mongols catapulted the bodies of diseased soldiers into the city. The refugees from the city then spread the disease to Europe.

 

Re: Re: Atrocities Scorecard: Communism vs. Capitalism vs. Religion

Jonesy just posted this thread to have another excuse for a lame whitewash of communism.

or whatever other euphemism you want to use for those abominations inspired by Karl Marx