Article on American soccer versus the 'Old World'

Discussion in 'FIFA and Tournaments' started by Sempre, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    So you waited 4 hours on an American-based, Anglophone chatroom forum on Bundesliga, on a Saturday night (German time)...

    Amazing, tremendously brilliant research skills. :rolleyes:

    You could've, ya know... maybe done some legit "research" by reading German newspaper accounts of his stint there, or even American online summaries (a LOT of ppl were disappointed that he didn't stick around).

    And even if superdave were to come crawling back on his knees and beg your forgiveness, it still wouldn't change the following:

    It is not a universal truth that every single elite athlete must train and play in one of the top 4 leagues in the world in order to perform at his peak level. Many athletes thrive at under the constant pressure to succeed daily. Others simply do not.

    In fact, I have met pro athletes who swear by the addage that a successful athlete is a happy one. If you have a life outside of sport, when your athletic world comes crashing down (a poor performance, a coaching change where you become the victim of the coach "making an example," the staff intentionally keeping you off the field so that you don't reach a statistic that would kick in a hefty bonus, etc.), if soccer is your entire world... then your entire world has just crashed.

    If you have a life outside of sport, you can use that as a refuge. And then come back the next day refreshed. Anxiety free. Relaxed.

    Landon is one of those types of ppl. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your mold. but he really doesn't give a ********.
     
  2. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I linked to a long bio. of Donovan earlier in the thread.
    Not 'amazing' research, but I did look around online for
    info. on his career. The facts are there to be found.

    As you say, LD's a fine player, and whether or not he
    impressed at Leverkusen, his form at international level
    has been strong. But this debate hasn't been about his
    quality as a player.

    It's been over a line in the article of the thread's title;
    the writer of the piece had said LD flopped in Europe; I
    stated that I agreed with this but superdave was quick
    to 'correct' me. Well, he's lost the benefit of the doubt.
    I'll now assume everything he writes is ****, and work
    my way backward from there ................
     
  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At the time, FIFA didn't have a rule against the international transfer of children. Rules change. At the time, he couldn't play for the first team until he was 18. Go to the YA forum, and ask. Go ahead.
     
  4. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United
    Aug 3, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Landon was neither a success nor a failure at Leverkusen. The first time he went there he was legally too young to play on the Senior team, and then a bit later he was eligible, but the coach was not so open to 18 yr old players. He was also playing U-17 and the Olympics during this time, so he spent large amounts of time away from Leverkusen. Landon was unhappy and not terribly fond of being in Germany.

    He asked to transfer to MLS, and has been the best player the past 5 years. In the middle of that 5 year period he transferred back to Leverkusen because of a contractual agreement. It seems clear that he really didn't want to go back, and would try to get out of Germany somehow. His 2nd stint there was not impressive, but it would be very wrong to say he flopped. He played the equivalent of 5 games there, and only one of them was bad.

    Donovan was one of the most talented and most athletic players on the squad, but from what I can tell he didn't like the rigid system, nor was he happy living in Germany itself. He never seemed comfortable there. He simply didn't play enough games to make a long-term judgement on him.

    Like many here, I was disappointed that he didn't stay at Leverkusen, but I'm now convinced that his 2nd stint there was a charade designed to break him free of his contract.

    I always thought that Donovan should have gone to Spain or Italy, but he followed the money when he was younger, which is not always the wisest decision.
     
  5. What it is this assessment based on? Bias or fact?

    I really hope, for Donovan's sake, that you're wrong. If you were right, what would that say about his character?
     
  6. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Nothing that hasn't been said by most honest United States supporters already. Donovan is a tournament player. In big games, in the MLS playoffs, at the World Cup - in those sorts of situations he can be a truly great player. But week in and week out he'd prefer to mail it in. That's just the reality of his character. It's also why he's ill-suited for Europe, never should have went there to begin with, and shoud have stayed in MLS all along. Why? Because in MLS you can still get away with that kind of crap. (Hopefully in another 5 to 10 years that'll change.)

    What the hell is this thead about, again?
     
  7. Sorry, but I seriously doubt that. There have been U-18 players in the BL before and after LD.
     
  8. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rules must be different for non-EUs, then.
     
  9. Hm. Maybe.

    Somebody else pointed to Sahin, he's a non-EU citizen and under 18 and still able to play.
    Three possibilities:
    -Regulations have changed between LD and Sahin.
    -Sahin's case was different, because he grew up and played football in Germany.
    -The YA folks got something wrong.

    I'd loke to figure this out. Could you point me to the YA threads that deal with this issue?
     
  10. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If he's non-EU and in Europe, I want to know how he got around the FIFA rule against the international transfer of children!! This would be big news, cuz it pops up in Freddy Adu threads about 7 times a month.

    I guess the answer is that he grew up there, so he had the German equivalent of permanent residency.

    Nah, cuz they all predate the last crash. Those threads were all when Landon was there. But ask any of the YA vets.
     
  11. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United
    Aug 3, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The coaches there have commented on his superb fitness and athletic ability. He was also first or second in the fitness tests every time. I know his speed and endurance are top notch. So we can call these facts.

    Perhaps nothing, depends on the interpreter. I'm not saying he didn't try, but rather that his heart wasn't really in it. It wasn't necessarily a conscious effort with a preconceived plan, but who knows? This part we can call speculation.
     
  12. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United
    Aug 3, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Is your name Carsten Ramelow? :)
     
  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I started a thread, and one German poster says that Landon couldn't sign a pro contract until he was 18. And presumably having a pro contract is a requirement to play in BL.1. (But obviously not the regionalligas where the reserves play.)

    So it may not have been his age directly, but a combination of his foreignness and contract status (the latter being directly related to his age.)

    Now, that's one poster, whom I respect, so far. I'll update here if I find out any more information.
     
  14. meininki

    meininki Member

    Nov 30, 2005
    As far as I know, Nuri Sahin has double citizenship (he'll have to choose one before he turns 23).
    Even if he didn't have German citizenship, the transfer rule wouldn't apply for him, since he was never actually transferred. He joined the Dortmund youth squad in 2001. Also, he'd at least be a so-called "Fußballdeutscher" (a "soccer German", meaning he's played in Germany for at least 5 consecutive years, at least 3 of those as a youth player), so he'd be treated the same as a German player as far as the Bundesliga is concerned.
     
  15. meininki

    meininki Member

    Nov 30, 2005
    Exactly, presumably. Having a pro contract (being a so-called "Lizenzspieler") is not a requirement to play in the Bundesliga. You have to be at least 18 to become a "Lizenzspieler", regardless of your nationality. Sahin, for example, doesn't have a pro contract yet.
     
  16. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    This post had me in stitches. It's been made clear, by the very fact
    that you've started a thread seeking guidance and are back-tracking
    on previous statements, that you are absolutely not an authority on
    an issue that you had so heavy-handedly claimed authority on.

    And you even have the gall to talk about other posters earning your
    "respect." I'd neg-rep you for that piece of ridiculous nerve, but it
    won't make a difference. After 16,000 posts and all those green bars
    under your name, you're like a quack professor who's been given tenure
    and cannot be reined by the university, no matter what outrages come
    from his mouth . . . . Bravo!!
     
  17. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    This from a poster who is sooo bad at research that he makes assertions based on very poor evidence gathering.

    Whatever...

    Superdave has been following US soccer for some time. There are dozens of yanks abroad operating under dozens of different migration/legal issues. Excuse him if he couldn't remember w/ scientific precision the legal status of a yanks abroad. I can guarantee he was focusing on, you know... soccer, you know that game that we all play and/or follow. Maybe you should go to BigSoccerLaw.com and start a thread on this issue.

    He worked off his memory of a complex legal situation, was close to being right, but you "called him on it".

    Then, now this is where it gets complicated and so I'll pardon you before passing judgement... he sought to seek further clarification and (are you still w/ me??) waited to come back and post until he was fairly certain of how correct he had been and/or until he had to make necessary adjustments in his argument.

    He's not a lawyer w/ a specialty on German law and how it affects non-EU citizens. If you were truly interested in finding out the legal specifics, you would've gotten off your butt and done the work yourself.

    Pull the stick out of your butt and admit that, well, more or less, superdave was right.
     
  18. happii20

    happii20 New Member

    Dec 10, 2005
    Donovan is good. Is he the only good plater you have. I loved Cobi so much. He could dribble and play fantastic soccer. Ghana have always possess great players. Some old players.....Abedi Pele(Marseille), Tony Yeboah(Frankfurt), Osei Kuffour(Munique), Odartey Lamptey(Ajax), Appiah(Juve), Essien(Lyon) etc. I am looking forward to seeing a great game between Ghana and USA(underdogs in Group E).
     
  19. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Yeah. But there's a distinction to keep in mind: I never claimed
    to be an expert. I admitted that my knowledge of American players
    was not great. And I said I'd defer to superdave's opinion if he
    was more well-informed.

    But let's look at what's at stake here. No one here claims Donovan
    is a bad player. We all agree he's good. His international form has
    demonstrated this.

    And yet Donovan didn't make it in Europe (as the article writer of
    the thread's title noted). Some here gave different reasons: He was
    homesick; he didn't like the German tactical system; he is more suited
    to tournaments than league play. Fair enough. But all who gave these
    reasons pretty much were honest about the fact that Donovan had
    not succeeded at Leverkusen.

    Maybe there's no shame in that--maybe the MLS is where he truly
    belongs. But I think many will see Donovan's adventure at BL as a
    disappointment. Donovan is a high-profile player, maybe the best
    produced by the US. More money, more exposure, was available to
    him by making it in Europe. Perhaps by conquering the game there
    he'd have opened the eyes of clubs in England, Italy, and Spain to
    the potential of other young American players. Is the MLS the league
    for a player of his talents? These are real questions.

    So I find it funny that superdave avoided all these questions in
    such a sly way. Did Donovan give value for his contract? Dave
    suggested Leverkusen hadn't really invested much. (The figure
    was $400,000 over 4 years--after the signing of which LD netted
    a more lucrative endorsement contract with Nike. Not so shabby
    for a kid, I'd say.) Did not Donovan fail to impress in his first stint?
    No, not at all, he'd only failed to make the first team because he
    was legally too young, Dave says.

    Now for a supposed authority on the matter, that was a weak
    answer, not one that made matters clear or enlightened the
    ignorant. I'm sorry that you feel I've been merely splitting hairs
    here. It is much deeper than that. If Dave is the authority on
    the matter, let him shed light on the question at stake. Instead
    he's obfuscated the matter and has amazingly become arrogant
    and obstinate in addition.

    That's dumb. And I can't say it's made him "more or less" right.
     
  20. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    I feel embarassed to even respond to this drivel, but you should google the name "DaMarcus Beasley." 90% of our entire current roster is better than Cobi Jones ever was in his prime. And I dont mean that as a slight to Cobi. But your assessment just shows you are ignorant of the level of player we have.
     
  21. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    C'mon bostonsoccermdl: he's a newbie, and he came here posting in a very friendly way, looking for info, kind of pulling for the US b/c we're underdogs. Cut him some slack!

    And, um, Cobi is actually a fringe player to make it to Germany; I doubt he will, but he just might.
     
  22. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    Fair enough, I take it back.

    I actually reread his post and realized he was asking if Donovan was the best player we have. I didnt realize that initially.
     
  23. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ????

    I didn't write that.

    I wrote that he wasn't demoted to the reserves because he couldn't play BL.1 at the time anyway. And I wrote that for most of the time he was with BL, he wasn't 18. And I wrote that the straw that broke the camel's back, according to Landon, was when he was promised a spot in the matchday 18 due to his play at practice and with the reserves and the coach reneged. He got tired of sitting and started working on the move to MLS.

    The whole situation wasn't working. Landon has always been committed to Nats duty, whether U-x or the Olympics or what have you. Germans don't have the best reputation for playing youngsters. Landon knew he had to get playing at a higher level in order to help the senior Nats in qualifying and the World Cup. Leverkusen had no use for him, and if he was in MLS, at least they weren't on the hook for his salary.

    Is this all cuz I kept asking you when you'd seen Ghana play, and you had to admit that your opinions were based on highlights you'd seen? If I'd known it was going to lead to stalking I would never have gone there. You're hardly the only poster judging talent without watching matches.
     
  24. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Your version of Donovan's first stint at Leverkusen is just not
    true. In fact, it's false. Donovan was capable of playing on BL's
    first team. Not only that, but he did receive demotions--to the
    third and fourth divisions. Not because he was legally ineligible
    to play for the first team, but because the club was unhappy
    with him. These facts can be found in his bio.

    Leading us to the questions you've continously dodged: did
    Donovan succeed at BL? Did he give value for his contract? 6
    pages of this thread, and I haven't yet heard your answer to
    these questions, much less the merest retraction of any of
    your falsehoods and mistatements.

    I await the next mass of evasion and falsehood .............
     
  25. ZeekLTK

    ZeekLTK Member

    Mar 5, 2004
    Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    Norway
    Guys, don't bother with this Sempre guy. He claims we are delusional for thinking we could possibly win our group (which we have a 25% chance of doing) or just advancing to the next round (which we have a 50% chance of doing!) yet he is an Italy fan, and by all truths, they are the delusional ones. Not because they are predicting victory, but just in the fact that they are Italy fans. Most of the ones (on this board at least) claim to be all out "Italian" and support their "home nation" furiously, but the fact is the majority were born in the USA, grew up here, and have lived here their entire lives with their only connection to Italy being a great great grandfather who came over more than 100 years ago. Their support is so fanatical that they cannot even be bothered to support their real country and will even go so far as to root against us, as stated in this thread. They are clearly an irrational bunch, so there is no point in arguing with them, logic is useless against them.


    Also, he keeps claiming Ghana is "the best team in Africa" and whatnot. He admitted, in another thread, he has never seen them play. So how can he possibly come to the conclusion that they are better than the likes of Cote d'Ivoire or others without being bothered to actually watch the team? Well, probably by the same logic the "Italian" fans use to support Italy over their home country, the United States.
     

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