Article on American soccer versus the 'Old World'

Discussion in 'FIFA and Tournaments' started by Sempre, Dec 16, 2005.

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  1. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    No; Donovan is a fine player.

    But it's silly to act as though he didn't flop at Leverkusen.
    Here's a club that invested millions in him as a teenager
    and were rewarded with what, precisely? Before he was
    loaned to the Earthquakes, he was in the German *4th*
    division, impressing no one and making his name mostly
    for not being focused.

    When he came back to Germany after the '04 season, he
    did little to make things right and was allowed to return to
    the MLS. That's a success story? Welcome to the 'escuela
    del ding dong'; what would you like to be today?'
     
  2. AngelaMerkin

    AngelaMerkin Member

    Dec 2, 2005
    He flopped in that Champions League game because he was not given the chance to succeed. Instead of on the weekend having donovan control the midfield, they had the normal guy in there playing who was suspended for the champions leage game. Donovan was still not familiar with his teammates and was given little to no chance to succeed. Was donovan a puss for coming back? I think so. But let's call a spade, a spade here.
     
  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. We both live in Raleigh, so I wanna know what dish system/cable package you have that lets you see the Ghanaian national team. :p
    2. Sempre is always pumping the Ghanaians, but he's arguing that from the same position I'm arguing "how the hell do I know." Namely, a position of ignorance. But my position and my argument pretty much go together. His do not.

    Allow me to clarify something. Alot of posts by Yanks paint scenarios by which the US would advance, and those are alot more likely to have a win over Ghana than the other two teams. Why is that? Because the other two teams are on their home continent, Ghana has never been to a World Cup, and Africa has never had two teams advance in the same world cup. So with 5 teams, you wouldn't predict Ghana would advance, ergo, scenarios for our team to advance generally include beating Ghana. Finally, the Czechs were on FSW a few times, and many get Italian matches on either FSW or Gol, we don't know as much about the Ghanaians.

    Alot of Euros and self-hating Yanks are taking those scenarios to be an insult to the Ghanaians. It isn't. It's just a reflection of the fact that by the best information available, CzR and Italy are better than Ghana, and they're sorta at home.

    One last thing, barely relevant to this thread. Realistically, the best scenario for the US advancing is to tie for 2nd with 4 points, and advance on GD. That's how Turkey advanced ahead of Costa Rica. Is it how Italy advanced last time?

    The problem is if you follow the standard optimistic scenario, we lose and draw in our first two matches. Ghana loses both. So on matchday 3, we just have to have a better GD than the team we drew, and hope the team we drew loses to the clear group power. Simple, right?

    Problem is, in this scenario, the other match is a team with 6 points and a team with 4 points. The two teams benefit from colluding and drawing, since one teams guarantees passage, and the other guarantees winning the group and avoiding Brazil. OK, Brazil is such an obstacle that the team with 4 points may play balls-out and go for a win. Especially CzR and Italy, which each harbor realistic hopes of winning the whole shebang.

    Anyway, my point is, the order of matches is really bad for the US. We play the likely worst team last, which means that in order to really hold our fate in our own hands, we either have to draw BOTH CzR and Italy, or beat one of 'em. And we don't get Italy in Game 1, which is obviously preferrable given their traditional tournament strategy of building their play.
     
  4. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    The truth is - and I say this as an American fan - Landon is a p'ssy. The whole "move to Europe" was an orchestrated stunt to finish up his contract with Leverkusen and return to the United States, but this time to Los Angeles which is where he wanted to be in the first place. You often hear about Mexican players not wanting to play outside of Mexico because they're "comfortable" in Mexico. Well, Donovan is the same way about playing in the US, and particularly about playing in LA. That's the long and the short of it.

    By the way, that quote about Landon and Totti - I can't find it anywhere on BigSoccer.
     
  5. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Misconstrue? Time for a reality check. Italy is the seeded
    team in Group E, but you ain't gonna find much gun-slinging
    optimism on the Italy boards (excepting the posts from the
    red-nippled newbs who talk out of their asses).

    Now look carefully through the USMNT News & Analysis
    boards and tell me there is not a great deal of optimism
    in the threads despite the fact that the US has a rather
    poor record in Europe and will be facing three very strong
    teams.

    You'll find everything there--Italy = Portugal, USA will
    win Group E, 'Gooch will mark out Toni and Gilardino', etc
    etc etc . . . Matter of fact, don't go to the USMNT boards.
    Go to World Rivalries and see how many posts in the
    'Dumbest Thread' are devoted to American naivete . . . .
     
  6. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes. And we balance that with his good play, as well.

    The coach screwed him in the home tie. He knew LD was gonna have to start because of a player out for suspension. He knew Landon had little gametime with his teammates. But in the preceding Bundesliga match, he hardly played Landon!! Even before the match, YA was all about how Landon was in a tough spot, he was set up to fail. And then with the whole team sucking hard, the coach scapegoats Landon and pulls him.

    That was an ugly scene.

    Not saying Landon didn't suck, cuz he did. Just saying it was an ugly scene.

    EDIT: JeffreyWyatt covered most of this.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Every sentence here is untrue, and your ignorance is rapidly lurching into Trollistan.
     
  8. ElDivino

    ElDivino Member

    Nov 11, 2004
    True..True..he isnt a bad player at all..its just much more was expected of him.
     
  9. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    What is open to debate is whether or not Leverkusen
    did their best to help Donovan succeed.

    Frankly, I think there was wrong on both sides. Donovan's
    head wasn't there as a teenager; he was constantly flying
    back to the US for youth tournaments, and I won't be stepping
    on your toes by saying that he did not like the regimented
    style of German club life. He was homesick, as well. (IIRC
    he has no father and is close to his mother?)

    Having said that, Leverkusen humiliated him on a couple
    of occasions when they ought to have acted more maturely.
    (The demotion to Division 4 was particularly bad.)

    But Donovan never gave value for his contract. That is
    above and beyond debate.
     
  10. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which, of course, is completely unrelated to the percentage of posts here by Yanks, and the devotion it takes for a foreigner to come here instead of calciogrande.com. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    You can find Donovan's biography on the Web if you
    don't want to take it from me.

    I will re-check it myself, but I believe it is correct to
    say that in his first spell at Leverkusen (pre-loan) he
    did not break into the first team and was not in favor
    with the club. Didn't his agent have to fly to Germany
    to find a solution at that time?
     
  12. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    In addition to European snobbery, the high number of
    American posts in the 'Dumbest Posts' thread has a lot
    to do with . . . American posts.
     
  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, his parents divorced when he was young. His dad used to post here.

    Again with the ignorance!!! Almost the whole time Landon was there, he was too young to legally play BL.1, so he had to play with the reserves. He was never DEmoted because he was never with the first team, because it's against German law.

    One of the breaking points in Landon Term 1 was when (according to Landon; given the chaos at the club at the time it's totally believable) he was told that his excellence with the reserves was going to be rewarded with a bench spot and possible playing time with the seniors. The coach reneged, and that was the final straw. Landon wanted a chance and felt he wasn't getting it, so everyone worked out the 2 year loan deal to MLS. The thinking was that BL didn't have a burning need for Landon for 2 years, so it was better for the club that Landon play in MLS than D3 or D4.
     
  14. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ???

    I didn't mention Eurosnobbery. I was talking about percentage of users.

    I'll bet there are more good posts here from Californians than from Alaskans. And I'll bet there are more bad posts here from Californians than from Alaskans. You're a bright boy, you'll figure it out.
     
  15. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    1. Fair enough re: Donovan. You certainly know more
    about American players than I do, and my handle on
    his biography was flawed. Thanks.

    I think you have not really got to the main thing though.
    Did he succeed at Bayer, did he give value for his contract?
    Kempes said outright that Donovan "did not flop." I'll defer
    to your opinion, but I'd like to know it.

    2. Is it only a matter of statistics? That ignores cultural
    background IMO. In soccer-mad countries, the average fan
    will often possess a fairly astounding amount of knowledge.
    Granted the American posters on BS are much more informed
    about American players, the MLS, and soccer in America,
    but they often err when comparing their players, league,
    and national team to those abroad.
     
  16. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They paid him modestly for less than two years, and then for a few months last year. I'm sure MLS paid much more in transfer money than BL paid Landon.
     
  17. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Depsite a previous statement, it seems like you're offended by US optimism.
    We're #1? :)
     
  18. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    The optimism is fine. But why deny it's there and pretend that
    most USMNT fans are gloomy?
     
  19. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Someone has done that?
     
  20. deciiva

    deciiva New Member

    Aug 11, 2004
    New York,NY

    True, "Africa has never had two teams advance in the same world cup", but then times have changed...'cos Africa has never had 4 teams playing their 1st World Cup. Almost all of them are "unknown".

    South Africa 0-2 Ghana WC Qualifying game in Johannesburg is online. You can download it here and watch the game. http://www.bitenova.org/tt/5019g

    Italy got a taste of Ivory Coast in November, when they played 1-1
     

  21. This is actually a very good post. I kinda like this particular noob. The force is strong in this one. Now let's teach him the ways of WR.
     
  22. Sempre

    Sempre ****************** Member+

    Mar 4, 2005
    NYC
    Club:
    AS Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Si, infatti. GrandInquistor said the US boards are
    "drenched in morose gloom." I have not noticed this,
    personally.

    I love your sig., by the way. I believe someone has
    coined another name for Group E--the Group of Severe
    Maiming!
     
  23. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ah, the cry of the truly desperate. Please notice the two counterintuitive/false assumptions at work here.

    1. It's an advantage for these nations that lack WC experience.
    2. That the newbies' opponents can't find out about them. In a post which offers a link to a freely available match of one of the newbies.

    Oh...I want to clarify, a bit, my comment about Africa never having two nations advance. First, Africa is clearly an overrated confederation. I read all the time here and around the web and hear on TV about Africa's talent, in a way I NEVER hear people talking about CONCACAF, which has an UNQUESTIONABLY better record in World Cups...even if you take into account they've had 3 host nations.

    Second, I do think Africa will break through sometime, and sometime soon.

    But it's unlikely to happen in a Cup held in Europe, where almost every group has 2 UEFA teams.
     
  24. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Apparently... the German press and Leverkusen fans don't know "the truth" of which you speak.

    According to them, Landon was anything but a flop.

    And in hindsight... Liverpool was the best team in CL. No wonder the entire team redefined suckitude that day.

    Re: American optimism and overconfidence...

    You'll find a ton more Europhiles predicting 0 pts for the US than American fans predicting 9, for instance.

    And there's quite a bit of difference btw making a wishful prediction and making an assertion. Of course an American is going to predict high for his/her side. Of course an Italian will as well. Of course a Ghanian will. Of course a Czech will.

    But it's only "arrogance" when an American does it. Whatever...

    Arrogance is predicting 0 pts. for a side in this group.
     
  25. thigpig

    thigpig New Member

    Apr 24, 2005
    upstate NY
    best post of the thread
     

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