Arsenal vs Man City (EPL) 21Feb2021

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by And_ROOS, Feb 20, 2021.

  1. super gooner

    super gooner Member

    Arsenal
    England
    Sep 20, 2020
    We're all amazed that it was only a one nil defeat, let's face it, City hardly got out of 3rd gear they didn't need to. They have a crucial CL match on Wednesday and they did just enough to beat us. Had we scored, which looked unlikely, they would have upped it to score again.
     
  2. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Many of these bad contracts were locked in years ago and it is hard to escape from them

    Wenger wasted our elite striker money on Laca - and then when that didn't work out, had to spend even more on Auba who at least was elite, but at age 28, that meant his resale was low.

    by summer 2020, with the team in big trouble, and in a pandemic, we can't get any resale on Auba, but also we need his goals - because who else in this team is going to score 20+ league goals?

    So there was a logic to renewing him but it is a product of bad mistakes
     
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  3. And_ROOS

    And_ROOS Member+

    Dec 30, 2006
    Melbourne, Aus
    Really need to get into the habit of 1 year deals for players in their 30s.

    Willian is going to hurt us long term. Auba might be struggling this season in the EPL but statistically he isn't way off last year.
    He has 14 appearances to put up another 14 goals and 2 assists to equal his output from last season.
    He has the same shooting accuracy (45%) as last year, has had 44 shots (93 last season) with 20 on target (42 last season).

    Considering the shit year we have had, if Auba gets up to the 16 goal mark thats a pass for him considering he missed matches due to his family issues and form.

    Right now we have Luiz, Willian and Auba in their 30s with Soares and Laca not far off. And only Auba would deserve more than 1 year.
     
  4. Serengeti_Boy

    Serengeti_Boy Member+

    Sep 15, 2009
    Serengeti, East Africa
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Tanzania
    I was against it too as much as I'm appreciative of him. It's worse when we do it for him and Willian in one summer. Stars in decline who've won most trophies that they'll ever get and are losing hunger.
     
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  5. super gooner

    super gooner Member

    Arsenal
    England
    Sep 20, 2020
    Sometimes, you have to cut your losses.
     
  6. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    He got a hat trick a week ago.
     
  7. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Saka was one of the last ones off the pitch, having a talk and mutual pats on the back with Foden and Walker. I don't want Luiz's contract to be renewed either---let him go back to Lisbon or wherever---but friendly chats with mates is waaaay down on the list of reasons why.

    As for Howard, terrible pundit, never offers anything insightful. The only thing I'd be interested in hearing from him is how exactly a Trinidad & Tobago B-teamers beats him from 40 yards out. Never thought I'd say it but I don't know why NBC and Susan Sarandon's former son-in-law parted ways last year.

    Oh yeah, the match? Agree with the consensus here, which seems to be as follows: thankful for the lack of a drubbing but we rarely looked dangerous and City looked like they were fine just getting a lead and then stretching their legs for Gladbach.
     
  8. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Didn't notice Saka. But not too surprising, given all that's been said already about this trend. And I agree that post-match socializing isn't near the top of my list of peeves, either in general or specifically for Luiz.

    That said, comparing Saka to Luiz is a bad comp IMHO. Saka's built up tons of good will, has a bright rising future as a young leader, in many different forms of leadership. Luiz? I don't even want to begin comparing him... he just doesn't measure up.

    I also agree with you about Howard... he's a weak pundit. He was weak on B/R but there he was surrounded by similarly weak talent. Once he joined NBC his deficiencies were thrown into much sharper focus. I don't expect him to last there. And yeah, it really highlights how comparatively good Martino was as an analyst. Never really heard why he left (maybe related to the failure of his marriage?) but NBC's product has suffered as a result.
     
  9. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Understood, but if you want to go this route, one could argue, ok, Luiz has actually won trophies, knows what it takes to be a part of a team that wins trophies, and has been viewed as a leader pretty much everywhere he goes.
    upload_2021-2-22_10-12-5.png
    Don't know. I listened to an episode of Grant Wahl's pod many months ago, in which Martino was his guest. He seemed to hedge on this topic, mentioning "other interests," etc., etc.
     
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  10. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I tend to agree with this - especially from the world of rugby

    I've seen guys absolutely destroy each other, then offer a hand up off the ground a pat on the back. Lot's of them come up in the same age group teams and stuff.

    Personally I think it means nothing to chat with fellow pros and friends after the game.
     
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  11. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    The criticism of Lulz is that he has tended to be too emotional in games
     
  12. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Nah, it isn't. I would wonder why Tim Howard decided to harp on this when we see this every weekend in the Premier League. I would wonder if Howard has a personal issue with Luiz. Nothing Tim Howard said comes close to what David Luiz has been for this club since he arrived. ANd I say that thinking it was a bad signing when he arrived and don't want him back.

    Nope, it was a bad moment and was the only goal of the match. Thats a centerback. You don't wipe away a goal, the only goal of the match, and say "well it was one bad moment." He was beaten by someone 6 inches shorter than him.

    Holding has moments like that a lot either through lack awareness, lack of athleticism and even lack of ability. In an ideal world, he is our fourth choice CB.

    I don't think Auba is finished, but he can't play CF in Arteta's system. He isn't physical enough and doesn't put his body in centerbacks enough. The Auba contract will look terrible in a year.
     
  13. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Plus: he's prone to major gaffs, red cards, giving up PK's, being slow, getting caught out by poor positional decisions, being a better "attacking defender" than defending defender, being too old on the age curve, and probably other things I'm forgetting. Oh and then there's that cheating mindset that you know I love so much.

    p.s. Notice I didn't mention friendly fraternization with opponents after a loss... that's never been the main thing I didn't like about him, nor the thing that made me never want to renew him. But as we've established ad infinitum, it's something I don't care for. ;)
     
  14. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    I don't think there is much that separates the 4 CB's in the squad right now. Luiz and Gabriel are probably the best pair when they are at their best, but both, particularly Luiz, are prone to mistakes and bad performances. Holding and Mari are more steady. Even when they screw up and give up a goal, they usually bounce back and don't compound their mistake.

    Going forward, Luiz will turn 34 pretty soon. He isn't going to improve and while he might maintain his current level for a few more seasons, there is the risk that his decline will be sudden. Gabriel is young and can get better. Holding and Mari are perfectly fine as backups, just don't expect to win the league with them starting every match.
     
  15. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IIRC he ran for USSF President shortly before he parted company with NBC. That supports the "other interests" theory. Kyle's a bright, passionate guy, and I think he's got lots to offer, beyond just being a TV studio pundit.
     
  16. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    Arteta has mostly paired Laca/ESR and Auba/Odegaard at the CF and 10 spots. ESR likes to play in to the feet of a target man to get one-twos and allow him to make the run off the ball. Odegaard seems to prefer to play thru-balls to runners in behind, which suits Auba.
     
  17. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Its a weird point that applies nowhere else in the world.

    You work for rival organizations in your white collar profession, but aren't allowed to goto happy hour together? Its stupidity.
     
  18. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    At the amateur level, at least in the states, Rugby teams typically party together after the game. For the most part you leave what occurred on the field, on the field. It’s just a game and socializing afterward is a level of respect for each other and the game.
     
  19. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Something I've noticed about pundit world, having done a lot of interviews in high performance, is that pundits tend to spout a lot of generic low level wisdom about perfomance, based on their own experiences years ago

    So they generically understand the importance of the mental side of the game, but typically demand the players illustrate it in some performative way - e.g. getting angry or "showing passion" whereas some of the very best sportspeople show very little emotion on the pitch - remaining very calm at all times.

    One thing that stuck with me was the time Jose destroyed Neville and Cara when he was working as a pundit. Carra was fixated on a particular idea of teams having only one way to play. Neville was much better and detailed in his arguments about that because he is intellectually much more curious. But Jose revealed both of them did not understand the issue in the kind of detail necessary to be an elite trainer.

    Just because you played football at a high level, doesn't mean you really understand what is happening at team level.
     
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  20. CarlosKaiser

    CarlosKaiser Member+

    Arsenal
    United States
    Jul 30, 2018
    Kansas City
    I think it is self preservation. If a former player wants to keep his job as a pundit, then he needs the audience to think the most important thing in football is something only a former player can explain.

    If we start to think that stats are the most important thing, we should replace the former players with stats geeks. If we think tactics are the most important, we should hire former coaches.

    This applies not just to pundits, but head coaches and managers as well. And yet almost all of them are former players.
     
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  21. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    well yeah - i mean it became apparent that Wenger himself did not fully understand key components of the modern game - or at least if he did, he wasn't able to implement them

    it's why I think arteta has followed a decent career path - he got himself the full tactical education as a trainer - but of course managing a team means dealing with the other aspects of communication and leadership
     
  22. bandwagongooner

    bandwagongooner Member+

    Dec 9, 2006
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The thing that's absolutely killed Arsenal over the last 15 years is a complete misunderstanding of the financial aspect of the game. They invested in the stadium when players were the fastest appreciating assets in the game. They're now wildly overpaying in both transfer fees and wages. Nobody at the club has a feel for how to use the money to win games.
     
  23. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    I think you can divide it into 3 periods.

    During peak Weng, we purchased some of the best talents in europe at relatively high prices (for EPL).

    Overmars, Bergkamp, Vieira, Petit, Pires, Henry, etc etc - these were elite european players. The last one of those guys was Reyes who came as an elite young player and demonstrated immense talent.

    During the stadium era, post 2005, and keeping in mind that the credit crunch / GFC would cause huge liquidity worries for everyone by 07/08 - Weng generated huge alpha in the markets with his egalitarian model. We churned our portfolio, remaining top 4 with limited spend, and even came close to winning the league

    I think you are correct as regards the Peak Wumger era post 2013 (our last truly top side). We no longer generated alpha, investing in players who were supposedly the missing pieces but the team was actually in decline. And we got no money for our supposedly elite players like Wilshere, Ramsey, Alexis, Ozil etc

    The stadium debt had essentially inflated away post 2013 but like you say we didn't invest in the right profile of player, and kept the wrong players too long.
     
  24. super gooner

    super gooner Member

    Arsenal
    England
    Sep 20, 2020
    I think Wenger was stubborn about the prices that players were commanding and wouldn't pay it. Even the good players he had he wouldn't up their salaries. I think at one time RVP was on little more than a youth player - just something I seem to remember from the time - no wonder our star players got restless. (You can thank Chelsea and their money for that, but still, Wenger refused to accept it,)
     
  25. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Interesting article on Rose.

    it still strikes me that Maric could diagnose so many of Arsenal's problems better than our own management team - then of course he was snapped up by one of the hottest up and coming trainers


    https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...o-rose-interview-manchester-city-jurgen-klopp
     

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