Arsenal v. Villareal - Fabregas Yellow Card

Discussion in 'Referee' started by seadondo, Apr 7, 2009.

  1. seadondo

    seadondo Member

    Apr 8, 2008
    Redondo Beach
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Did anyone watch this game and see the Yellow Card issued to Fabregas? He had a free kick outside the box, and took the kick early, before the Referee's whistle to re-start. My question is this: did Fabregas or any other Arsenal player request the 10 yards before taking the free kick?
     
  2. PVancouver

    PVancouver Member

    Apr 1, 1999
    About what time in the game was the caution given?
     
  3. intechpc

    intechpc Member

    Sep 22, 2005
    West Bend, WI
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well I didn't see the game so I don't know what happened in this case. However, as far as the caution goes, it doesn't matter if he asked for 10 or not, once the referee says wait for my whistle, the kicker needs to wait. This bizzare belief that players have to ask for 10 before the referee has to enforce it is one of my biggest pet peeves. The only source for it that I can imagine is the text in the ATR that says the referee should avoid disadvantaging the kicking team by holding up a fast restart to enforce 10 yards. If there's no chance for a fast restart anyway, then the referee is well within his right to hold up play and enforce the 10 without the request from the kicking team.
     
  4. jkc313

    jkc313 Member

    Nov 21, 2001
    When is there not a chance for a fast restart? One of my pet peeves is referees that take it upon themselves to make almost every restart ceremonial and deny the kicking team their right to a quick restart
     
  5. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Greater Pittsburgh
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If someone asked for ten and then he preceded to take the free kick anyway, i.e. while the defense wasn't expecting it, I can definitely justify a yellow card for unsporting behavior.

    I just have no idea if that's what happened.
     
  6. KMJvet

    KMJvet BigSoccer Supporter

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This was one of the better Champions' League officiating performances I've seen in a couple years. Failure to give Fabergas a 2nd yellow was generous, but other than that, really pretty good.
     
  7. seadondo

    seadondo Member

    Apr 8, 2008
    Redondo Beach
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can you give some details to the first yellow card given, ie did Fabregas ask for 10 yards? And could you give details on why Fabregas should have been cautioned a second time?
     
  8. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It doesn't matter if he asked for it. Since he was booked I'm assuming the ref (TH Overbro) told him to wait for the whistle.

    But I did not see the match. I'm only basing this on what you said.
     
  9. boylanj64

    boylanj64 Member

    Nov 7, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You should NEVER give ten yards if the kicking team doesn't request it. Sure, if the opponents get within a yard, the kick turns ceremonial, but that should be because you're showing a yellow for encroachment. There are clear advantages for the attacking team for the wall being closer than ten yards - most easily mentioned would be if the kicker wishes to drop a ball in behind the wall to an onrushing attacker.

    Even once the kick is ceremonial though I'm not clear it is a yellow for kicking before the whistle. The example that comes to mind is a PK, where if the kicker kicks before the whistle you warn once, then card if they do it AGAIN. So I don't think this was very well handled.
     
  10. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    The guidance from the USSF referee department the past couple years is a bit different. We have been reminded that teams are more and more frequently setting up, i.e. not going quickly, from about 35 yards and in. And we are being encouraged to make things ceremonial where it seems appropriate, to make sure the team has the 10 yards and to prevent problems or delays.

    Generally, I will wait and try to let a team play quickly, advising opponents to move back without making things ceremonial. Obviously you can ask the players if they are going quick or if they want the 10. But if I see a team lining up for a free kick 35 yards or less from goal, talking it over, etc and clearly not interested in playing quickly, I will sometimes tell them to wait for the whistle and get them their 10 yards.

    One of the 2009 directives is 'free kick and restart management' and it's pretty well done.
     
  11. boylanj64

    boylanj64 Member

    Nov 7, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I suppose there could be rare circumstances where it would make sense to make a kick ceremonial without the kicking team asking, so without having seen the match yet I can't comment further on if the official was right to make it ceremonial
     
  12. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    I haven't seen the match either, so I make no judgement in this particular situation. However, I would say it is more often than 'rare' that the referee could/should make a free kick ceremonial without the attacking team requesting it.
     
  13. boylanj64

    boylanj64 Member

    Nov 7, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Would depend on your definition of "rare." I'd say maybe 5-10% of restarts, I could see what you're driving at, but in the middle area you're talking about I find a strong presence can be just as useful as an additional whistle.
     
  14. KMJvet

    KMJvet BigSoccer Supporter

    May 26, 2001
    Quake Country
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was a dangerous free kick location, right near the top of the 18 yd box. The sort of spot where big walls are always set because it's as dangerous as is possible for putting it in on a direct free kick. I couldn't tell what who asked for what for sure, but the ref told him to wait on the whistle, he did not. He put a shot on goal and ref denied it and gave him a card.
     
  15. seadondo

    seadondo Member

    Apr 8, 2008
    Redondo Beach
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  16. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If he's moving the wall back, its a safe assumption that he told Arsenal to wait for the whistle.
     
  17. PVancouver

    PVancouver Member

    Apr 1, 1999
    The foul occurred at 45:15+.

    We don't get to see the complete story, because replays are shown after the foul but before the kick.

    One of the reasons the free kick didn't take place sooner was Arsenal's Adebayer breifly went down on the 18.

    By the time he got up and the replays are over, Villareal had about eight players between the spot of the kick (28 yards our) and 10 yards (18 yards out), with two more on the 18.

    Fabregas was seen talking to the official, along with a teammate. A Villareal player was also able to listen in on the conversation, standing at the spot of the kick.

    The referee nodded his head, backed up toward the 18, but as he did so, gave his whistle a long hard blow, presumably to attract the attention of the 9 or 10 defenders who were to fall back to 10 yards.

    Hopefully, he didn't tell Fabregas to "wait for the whistle".
    I suspect Fabregas was careful not to specifically request 10 yards.

    Because everyone was just standing around, a ceremonial restart might have seemed de rigueur.

    The commentators remarked that if Arsenal had wanted to take the free kick quickly, that they needed to notify the referee of their intent to do so.

    In my opinion, defenses have been given carte blanche to stand in the way of a free kick until they are required to move to 10 yards. Defenses regularly abuse the requirement to retire 10 yards from free kicks. Why should they, when the can get away with not retiring until forced to do so?
     
  18. Englishref

    Englishref Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    London, England
    I have some sympathy both ways. On the one hand, I think once the referee has started marching out the 10 yards, the free kick can't be taken quickly. However, I don't see why the YC is necessary. Making Fabregas retake the FK is ample enough.

    Not sure if Ovrebo said to wait for the whistle, but the usual approach we take is you ask the taker if he wants the 10 yards or not. If this happened yesterday, it would have been odd that Cesc would have asked for the 10, and then taken it quickly.

    It's something that is quite rare, but only seems to happen in England - the quick free kick - and ironically, it was Arsenal (Henry) who took advantage of it the most. In England, I'd be surprised to see a YC follow (see Wiley in the Man Utd vs Liverpool game), but it seems to be some sort of instruction in Europe to do so, though I fail to understand why.
     
  19. ColumbusSoccerRef

    ColumbusSoccerRef New Member

    Jun 16, 2008
    One thing I noticed in the video is when the kick was taken, where are the Villareal players looking? Toward their own goal. They were clearly not ready to defend the kick. It's possible, I suppose, that they were simply caught unaware. But I would think it virtually impossible at the highest level of club ball that the defenders would be unprepared to defend a free kick only ~22 yards from goal.

    As was mentioned, without the instructions to the players and/or good footage of the whole sequence it's very tough to discern what actually should have happened.

    -- CSR
     
  20. PVancouver

    PVancouver Member

    Apr 1, 1999
    The game is embarrassed and disrespected by such actions. Either Fabregas, the referee, or the laws of the game are at fault. But clearly, someone is at fault. That doesn't mean there couldn't have been a relatively innocent "miscommunication" in this case, but clearly the game should not accept the actions of at least one of the parties involved, if not several.
     
  21. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Member+

    May 25, 2006
    No question about it - the official blows the whistle and takes position marking 10.
    Cesc shoots while they are setting up.

    Foul occurs at about 4:30 and kick is taken just before 5:00.
    [ame="http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=55415099"]Villarreal v Arsenal Video by Das - MySpace Video[/ame]

    Additionally, there's no concern about a "quick kick" as the ball was knocked out of bounds during the foul. Arsenal would have had to wait for it to be retrieved.

    Cesc was being just a little too cheeky.
     
  22. boylanj64

    boylanj64 Member

    Nov 7, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, that kick had very clearly become ceremonial, and given how many players were standing around, and the fact the ball had gone out of play, I agree it should have been. I probably would have gone with a YC there as well
     
  23. seadondo

    seadondo Member

    Apr 8, 2008
    Redondo Beach
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    SportsBilly, that video doesn't work for me.

    I agree, the kick had become "ceremonial", but was that due to the Referee instructing Fabregas to wait for the whistle, or due to the nature of the amount of time it took to retrieve the ball and set up the kick?
     
  24. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Click the title of the video.

    here is the link. (remove the space between "myspace." and "com")
    http://vids.myspace. com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=55415099


    IMO, it was because the ref blew his whistle hard; walked to the spot for the Defense to form the wall; Defense was moving to that spot when Cesc walked up and hit the ball.

    Even the Arsenal players (other than Cesc) didn't act like it was a legit goal.
     
  25. chrisrun

    chrisrun Member

    Jan 13, 2004
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Two things that could have happened:
    1. The ref didn't explicitly say "Wait for the whistle", so he figured he could take the kick whenever since the ref didn't say to wait.
    2. The ref said specifically "Wait for the whistle", then blew the whistle (to move the wall back), and the kick was taken.

    Don't know if either of these things happened, but you do have to be careful with what you say and do at these ceremonial free kicks.
     

Share This Page