Army Treatment of Iraqi Prisoners: 60 Minutes II Story

It's "cynical" to believe that Americans are human beings with human failings just like the rest of humanity? Really? Wow. Just... Wow.

Other than that, I share your appreciation of the distinction between our ultimate reaction to the abuse and the likely reaction of other groups were the situation reversed as well as your unease at the military's attempt at censorship, especially considering the fracas about photos of flag-draped coffins and other attempts to keep the Amercian people ignorant of the realities of our occupation of Iraq.

 

even with all of this i still believe the majority of american people don't understand those realities at all.

 

Fair enough. Given the hostage taking, cynical hiding in mosques, etc. engaged in by the resistance, I don't see how anyone can make a case for moral equivalence between our troops and the resistance even in light of this sorry story.

I will add that I think it's a credit to our troops that there hasn't been more of this kind of thing in Iraq, considering how frustrated our troops must feel now and how poorly this whole adventure has been conceived and led by the Bush administration. I'm as proud of our troops on the ground as I am disappointed in and disgusted with other persons involved with this conquest and occupation.

 

Clearly just some stupid, juvenile pranks on the part of the soldiers. They should be disciplined, of course, but people who use this as "evidence" to say US troops are just as bad as Saddam (not on here but on another board I read) are talking out of their ass.

 

Unless I missed it, nobody here said the US troops were just as bad as Saddam.

Nice strawman, though.

And I would have to say, I would characterize these as more than just "juvenile pranks."

 

Disciplined? How bout court martialed.

 

Just some juvenile pranks?

Alex, you say that all American troops are heros. What about these pranksters?

 

They used a position of power to abuse and humiliate people. The fact that those people are prisoners and not regular civilians doesn't make it any more shamefull. They should be court martialed, as someone suggests earlier in the thread. If these men and women aren't seriously disciplined, than the message this will send will be trully disturbing, to say the least.

 

I feel good about how seriously the army seems to be treating this.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3669331.stm
A US general has been suspended in Iraq over the alleged abuse of prisoners by US troops in jails she ran.
Brigadier General Janis Karpinski is among seven officers being investigated following claims that soldiers under their command mistreated detainees.
...
The station spoke to one of the six soldiers charged, Sergeant Chip Frederick - a reservist whose full-time job is as a prison officer in the US state of Virginia.
Sgt Frederick said he and his fellow reservists had never been told how to deal with prisoners, or what lines should not be crossed.
"We had no training whatsoever," he said.
"I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations. And it just wasn't happening," he said.
He said he never saw a copy of the Geneva Conventions - which govern the treatment of prisoners - until after he was charged.
The Army investigation confirmed that reservists at Abu Ghraib had not been trained in Geneva Convention rules.
The military police officers have been charged by the US Army with crimes ranging from assault and maltreatment to indecent acts against prisoners.

I dunno what military prisons are like, but Chip Frederick, full-time prison guard, I'm guessing there are some people back in VA who want you on their cellblock.

 

So he's a prison officer in civilian life, but claims ignorance on how to treat prisoners? Did he think it was okay to abuse prisoners in the army? I mean, not giving the guy a copy of the Geneva Conventions appears to be a screw-up, but I don't think you need a copy of them in order to know it's not OK to make prisoners simulate sex acts on each other.

 

I have no idea if the guy was one of the animals, or just in the same unit as the animals.

But actually, I figured the Geneva Convention tries to impart some dignity on POWs. In civilian jails, aren't guards pretty much allowed to do whatever so long as they don't kill the inmate? I mean, who really cares what happens to a convicted murderer on the inside? Or have I just seen too many gritty prison dramas with sadistic guards?

Might be that the Iraqis were just getting the standard Virginia maximum-security prison experience?

 

Agreed. There are some things that should be obvious to an adult who's been deemed fit for admission into our military.

And I know our soldiers aren't completely cut off from cyberspace over there -- he could've shown some initiative and googled Geneva Convention and used that for starters.

I'm not happy, but not surprised, either, that the Army doesn't want this particular item of dirty laundry on display -- but I am glad that they seem to be taking this seriously.

 

I think you've been watching too much Oz.

 

Hence the phrase "not on here but on another board I read".

Clearly.

If there was actual physical torture of the prisoners, then it's worse than juvenile pranks. Forcing naked prisoners to form a human pyramid while mugging for picture is a juvenile prank.

 

Referring only to the stacking prisoners in a pyramid, getting them to "simulate sex acts with one another", etc., yes.

All who serve honorably, yes. Did these folks serve honorably? That's up for their chain of command and, if neccesary, a military court to decide--not a bunch of yahoos on a soccer internet board.

 

Naw, Shawshank redemption. That movie is on almost every weekend, isn't it?

 

No it's not.

 

No it's not.

 

If you have TBS

 

Aren't you going into the military? If you wound up a POW, would you laugh at your captor's "juvenile pranks"?

 

Well, as a Scandinavian I see this as proof, that thou the U.S. have great military strenght, the American soldiers have no clue what to do, when trying to act as peace keepers... they are simply not educated to do this kind of a job... I know this for a fact, since during the conflict in former Jugoslavia, some American soldiers were under Danish command, simply to learn how to be peace keepers (The first time ever, American soldiers have been under foreign command, by the way!)....

I also suspect, that the U.S. only had a plan for the war, and no plan how to bring peace to Iraq after the war ??... or am I mistaken ?? ...

.

 

they're trained to kill commies, not be peacekeepers. We usually use the UN for that. But somebody figured we could do it alone this time.