Armas: Here we go again? (R)

I don't think it was rust...these are the same problems that everyone had with Armas before his injury..during WCQ's I constantly remember the bad passes and giveaways. He wins the ball with great hustling and positioning, only to give it right back to the other team.

 

I thought it was totally unfair for Bruce to throw Armas out there in such an intense setting. He's played THREE MLS games since last May and just isn't ready for such a setting. I admire Bruce's devotion to Chris and attempt to boost his confidence (if that was the reason he played him), but it strikes me as poor judgment.

I don't blame Chris for his obvious poor offensive play, I blame Bruce for putting him there to begin with. While Armas does have offensive deficiencies, pre-injury he was much better last night. Some of his turnovers in the first half were downright embarassing.

 

I'll make one comment on this thread and that's it.

First, I thought Armas had on balance a very good game. He won a lot of 50-50 balls, stifled a number of attacks, and was excellent, per usual, in his defensive positioning.

Second, I thought Mastroneni had a very sub par game for him. Of the two, I thought Armas was better in THIS game. Mastroeni may or may not be a better player two years from now than Armas, may or may not be more skilled, faster or whatever right now, but in this specific game, Armas was the better of the two.

Third, the way you beat Mexico is not by have great midfield possession and banging the ball around is some elegant sets of triangle patterns. No, you cede a lot of midfield possession, stay VERY well organized defensively, and spring the counterattacks to create your chances. That's the tactical plan. To do that, you need flawless defensive positioning, and that's what you get from Armas.

Fourth, the game REALLY opened up for us when Convey replaced Mastroeni. I think Bruce's only tactical mistake for the evening was bringing him on to reprise the O'Brien role as late as he did -- I think he should have done it sooner, probably at the half.

As for Armas, we'll see. He has played very very well for the Fire, and is really only three or four months into playing after his long layoff. Let's see how it shakes out. Mastroeni is clearly the future, but there should be plenty of work for Armas to do, particularly in early qualifying.

 

Armas is a great hustler and fiery competitor....but is a waste offensively. It just sickens me when him and Cobi are on the field. This is one case where "old school" is not cool.

Ricardo Calrk is going to displace Armas and Mastro within the next two years, so this debate is short term.

 

Watching the game live I have the following thoughts:

1. Mastro and Armas on the field together didn't work very well. - They both read the game well, sit in about the same spot on the field and as a result were too near each other. I think this resulted in a couple of mexico's better chances in the first half.

2. Armas' passing wasn't very good - I think we shouldn't write him off as some of it is rust. This was a problem pre World Cup and it showed itself again. LIke Clint's fitness levels, keep your eye on them, if it doesn't improve then there are issues.

3. Mastro isn't as aggressive/physical as Armas - He just isn't. Better offensive player, but Armas (especially after Convey came on) is a destroyer and destroys very very well.

4. Having a possession player complement them works well regardless - When Convey came on, he more or less became a sure fire outlet for Armas. Like Reyna and JOB before, Armas first option is to get the ball to the possession player. As a result, wehn Mastro was off, Armas looked better because the possession player that he coudl constantly get the ball too was usually available. Whereas Mastro wasn't really that for Armas.

Summary: Too early to write off Armas. I don't think we can play a 3-5-2 with these two together. One of them with O'brien though and we could have a solid d-mid line with Beasley on the left, Reyna/Martino/LD in the center and Reyna/LD/Olsen/Klien/West on the right.

 

You may be right, but Clark has to be a star on the U23s next year first.

So, let's not get ahead or ourselves, and instead see what happens. I think Clark will be up and down over the course of the year, but every up will be a little bit higher than the last.

OK,this is it, last post on this thread, honest.

 

I don't really understand why Bruce started two d-mids. Costa Rica game, anyone? Sure, Pablo is better with the ball than Armas, but he doesn't have the sort of ball-control game needed to overcome Armas' deficiencies in this department. It also seemed that, for having two d-mids, Mexico was able to attack through the center of our midfield with relative ease. It may have been by design, but if that's the case, why have two d-mids? Why not have one d-mid and one guy who can spring an effective counterattack with one piercing pass?

I'm not claiming to be a tactical scholar, and my observations are probably very naive. Can somebody educate me?

 

C'mon Scoey, the truly tactically obsessive take a squad like Argentina and fail to trump Denmark. You're better off with bluff and luck.

I'd add that:

*We didn't HAVE to play the same style of game against Mexico as last time.

*Armas/Mastro was a brand new combination, and would normally need some time to click.

*It was interesting to see that Mastro is still learning this level of the game out there. You can see him grow.

Don't agree that he's played poorly since the World Cup.

 

I think the reason was to provide defensive cover for the outside midfielders, Hejduk and Beasley. Like a few people have mentioned before, we aren't going to beat Mexico in the middle of the field, we are going to beat them down the wings. So you can afford having more defensive players there so your outside midfielders can take more risks. With Beasley, it almost worked a few times. Some better finishing and he could've had a couple.

On this same note, I think Bruce was checking to see if Hejduk could fill this role. Who do we really have that can play the speedy winger role on the right? I didn't think Hejduk had that good of a game until Klein came in and couldn't find any space out there at all. That tells me Frankie did a really good job at getting some space and at least putting himself in a position to cross or attack.

 

So with two windshield wipers, McBride as the target forward, Mathis as the attacking mid/withdrawn forward and Donovan as a ranger we really played sort of a...

3
-
6
-
1
...

 

Positionally sound? I suppose, but he never seemed to venture very far from being rooted directly in front of Pope and Boca. Winning a lot of 50/50 balls? He won some, but not that many. Usually he immediately gave it back right after. He was dreadful with the ball at his feet in this game.

 

I think MLSNHTOWN has a great post.

Armas *did* do better with Convey and Stewart on the field than with Mathis and Mastro.

Armas was better defensively than Mastro, has always done better defensively than Mastro, and will likely always be a class above Mastro defensively.

Whoever asked if Mastro has had a good game since the World Cup I think you are on the right track. Mastroeni was not great at the World Cup, but he was mostly solid. I actually thought he did just enough to get by in the World Cup and nothing more (despite all the props and credit he has gotten for his World Cup display). I've seen him play on tv and in person a lot since then and was just totally unimpressed with him especially in the playoffs against Dallas at Dallas. Now I'm not getting down on Mastro I just think he needs to reach his potential. He's more athletic and better offensively than Armas, but unless he learns how to be an effective destroyer and not get pulled out of position he may get passed up on the national scene. Players like JOB, Reyna, and FotM Clark could all fill in that defensive midfield role.


I do think the point of the 3-5-2 with double defensive mids was to allow our midfield to be more offensive. I disagree that it was a 3-6-1 we were playing. Several times when Mexico was attacking Mathis never even went back on defense and we had 3 people walking back with the Mexican defenders.

Interestingly enough from watching Armas position the midfield the attacking midfielder (Clint/Earnie) had the responsibility of dropping deep into the middle when Mexico switched the ball along the backline and the opposite Dmid had the job of going out and meeting the ball. However, Stewart did this more often than Clint did. When Clint was playing Landon also tracked back a lot more than when Stewart was playing.

Anyway I definitely think we played with a

3-3-2-2 with DMB and Mathis being more offensive midfielders and the other 3 midfielders trying to hang back more. I'm not sure if Hejduk was suppose to be more offensive than he was or if BA wanted him to hang back more than DMB. When Klein went in Klein took a much more forward position than Hejduk and on several plays was actually lined up alongside the forwards and even with the last defender. I really can't say that Hejduk and Klein even played the same position. Did anybody else notice that?

 

Armas shouldnt have been on the field last night. He is of the same stock as Mastro, in terms of ball skills and presence, and he is over 30. Starting him in a lineup alongside mastro is redundant and his only role over the next 4 years will be as a backup at best. He should be involved in national team campa until a better player is developed or steps up as a backup replacement, but he is a stopgap and nothing more. Unfortunatley, he missed his chance at the WC with his injury.

 

The only questions I have about Armas are:
1. Will he hold it together until Germany?

2. How will Bruce use him?

Nobody knows the answer to #1, although I will say it is a highly risky proposition to build a team around a player who has blown his knee twice before major competitions and who is only getting older.

The answer to #2 is the one that I'll be keeping a close eye on. If we go back to the days where Armas plays in the center of the field every single game and struggles to add to the attack - not possession, not defense, not shape, etc - then I will sharpen the knives and recommence the hunt. I do not want to see the US return to 2001 form. Hopefully Bruce continues to deploy personnel based on what the tactics require, and in a way that plays to the strengths of each player.

Putting Armas in a position where he is given too many creative or attacking responsibilities is not optimal for the US Team, especially when we have better options in the wings.

 

I agree. He has played poorly with the Rapids and has been inconsitent with USMNT. I read a quote from him that stated that he thought that he gotten a little too full of himself after the World Cup, and he was just trying to get grounded again. Maybe it's work in progess...

Back to Armas. It's his first game back to the USMNT from a serious injury. If you take his play in that context, I'm willing to give him more time. However, both Pablo and him need to improve on the ball and distribution...

 

I found myself thinking that Pablo played better last night then he has been recently, with the Rapids or the national team. He still seems a bit wreckless at times.

The Rapids haven't exactly been providing a stable environment for Pablo to settle in. We've all been wondering if any of the players know what their roles are on the team.

One of the issues that Armas and Pablo faces seemed to be that once they won the ball they didn't have a ton of options. I think Mathis is starting to show some life, but he didn't really show all that well for the ball when we won it deep in our own end. DMB showed pretty well, but got nailed each time. Later in the half Donovan dropped back deeper and deeper which helped everyone look better.

 

Good points. I'm not really concerned about Pablo. Unfortunately (not for the Quakes), the Rapids don't seem to be providing an environment for him to grow. You are correct that no one showed for the ball. When this happens, the defenders and defending midfields look real stupid just clearing the ball. Then, people start complaining about their distribution. However, I saw both problems with players showing for the ball and Armas and Pablo making quick enough decisions. Although, I liked when Pablo held off a Mexican player which resulted in the Mexican player fouling him.

 

Pablo will never see better form than he did in Korea unless he can make the move overseas. The MLS will get him nowhere, as you can see. He isn't challenged enough so his decisions are easier and therefore he lacks basic vision - something he needs distributing from his position and what he can foster at the next level somewhere in Europe.

 

I wasn't impressed with either Chris or Pablo last night. Neither of them seemed to be able to consistently retain possession.

 

Throw the bums out. Ah I'm just kidding.