Argentine NT News, Stats, Players 2010-2011 [R]

PS. I can't find your edit.

 

my point is, the fans and media criticize him because the number of goals his scored for barca all these years, especially prior to the WC 2010 (38 + 47!) , that's naturally creating super high expectation from football fans and everyone who watch the WC. He played all 5 matches and couldnt get a single goal while at Barca he could score from anywhere ( tap in, solo run, distance shot, lob the GK,etc ).

He's being the best player for the team does matter to me but the thing that I stated above is the reason why most people will think otherwise.

 

I never asked about his accomplishments. You said that and I said if one of the reasons Tevez seems above your criticism is because he won the Gold, well then so did Messi.

Give up on what? On you praising one player for something then ignoring another one who did the same?

I never said that.. Criticize him all you want but at least show consistency. If you're going to claime things like "he can be used as a sub" say the same about other players who underperformed. In every single thread it's the same with you.

Yeah and then you claim he should be a sub .

He scored two goals against Spain in different frienlies, he scored against Brasil, he scored against France, he's scored twice against Mexico who are always a challenge, he scored against Croatia. Really you just have blinders on and constantly refuse to give credit where it's due.

Messi needs to score 20 goals against Brasil so you can finally shut up.

You clearly have little knowledge of tactics. Towards the end of Basile's era he went crazy and was playing a 4-3-3 with 3 DM's, Cambiasso, Mascherano, and Ledesma (from San Lorenzo at the time). No playmakers and Kun, Tevez, Messi up top. And he got destroyed by Chile.

Maradona used him out of position asking of him things he's never been used to. You can't expect a player to just change positions and imagine he's going to kill. Let's ask Mascherano to play as a striker. That was the equivalent and even then Messi was the team's best player.

At least Batista knows what he's doing. It showed in the Olympics and it's showing now.

 

It's impossible to compare what he's done with Barca because he grew up in that system and has been there forever. He knows the system. They are a well oiled machine and Argentina hasn't been one in a while. 2006 was close but Pekerman screwed up.

The team simply hasn't found it's footing except in the Olympics where they killed. And Maradona instead of continue using that system, squad, 4-2-3-1 that's very popular now tried to change everything and it failed.

 

I'm not comparing. You want me to compare to fit it into your argument.

Yeah I think that he has improved with the NT but that still doesn't mean that I don't think he should be a sub. I'm very consistent. Unfortunately you want me to be BLACK AND WHITE. Life in is the grey areas.

If I recall correctly in the only game that really matter was against Mexico in the Copa America. In the Semifinal against Brazil for the Olympics, he didn't score.

If I have blinders on, then its me and 75% of Argentina as well. I'm in good company, thank you very much.

Maybe. At least that way, he'll have at least made a dent into the deficit he has accrued with the Argentine NT fan.

I'm probably a moron but I also know that if you line up for Argentina as opposed to lining up for Isle Faroe you probably have a superior soccer brain and there is WAY MORE EXPECTED OF YOU!

That being said, Basile was trying to set up Messi more like Barcelona so that Messi could prosper. Unfortunately it didn't work.

Any idiot will tell you that Argentina does not traditionally play a 4-3-3 and that changing to that system will result in problems. Bielsa used the 4-3-3 in qualifying and got burnt in the WC. In big games, Argentina doesn't work well with a 4-3-3. At least from what I've seen over the years.

Also if you have to change a complete system for 1 player wouldn't it be easier for just that one player to change or be dropped altogether. Argentina can and will win tournaments with out Diego and Messi.

Remember Argentina NT > Maradona and Messi

Not true. Guardiola has been using Messi in a center position since the beginning of 2010. It wasnt a position that he wasnt used to, he played center for the almight Barcelona.

He did well in the Olympics, althought I'm starting to believe that it was more related to Riquelme than anything else.

Then he failed on the Sub 20 level and blamed the clubs because he didn't get Pastore, Defederico or Di Santo. Victim role much?

He regained notice in the Toulon Sub 21 invitational and Ill give him credit for that, even though he didnt win.

Now he's the DT of the Argentine NT with no experience at all except for the fact that he won't go against Grondona because he needs the money.

Mind you that I wanted him as coach before Diego was picked.

 

Whats the limit? He's been playing with the same guys on the Argentine NT for the past 5 years? How can he not KNOW how they play yet? He's not dumb. He's has to try a little harder.

Failed? Yet he was the only Argentine NT coach to win 4 straight games in a world cup since 1930? Scored the most points since 1990. Yeah you are right, he failed.

 

Diego failed against the first half decent team he came across in the cup yes. He didn't just fail, he was completely and utterly DESTROYED.

Corea, Nigeria, Mexico,... please. Those are teams you win against con la camiseta alone.

 

Like Corea did in 2002. Like Argentina did in 06 going into OT against Mexico and how Argentina lost to Nigeria in the Olympics Final in 96.

While I know that Argentina has a vast pedigree in relation to all these teams, to say that we should beat them alone with our shirt is completely arrogant. We need to play first.

 

I agree, but the match against Mexico in 2006 should not have gone to extra time as Messi had a goal disallowed for offside (when it wasn't).

In any case, I obviously agree that we need to play the game first and the names on paper have never won a match, but we are still expected to beat those teams.

And Korea in 2002 was due to FIFA and the referee's. But that's for another topic.

Getting back to Messi, I think he started feeling the heat from the fans and the media (whether it was deserving or not) right after the World Cup qualifiers. He played a very good game against Spain, played a decent match against Germany, was easily one of our best players (despite not scoring) at the World Cup and he's been great for us against Ireland, Spain, Japan and Brazil. He now knows that the pressure is on him to produce.

I said it after the Brazil game and I'll say it again, that goal that he scored against Brazil is/will be the turning point of his career with the National Team.

 

Real are sorely lacking in class.

Glad Tevez has just withdrawn his transfer request. Would hate to see him join them.

 

Another ridiculous argument. There is no winning with this guy. It's funny to watch him look only at certain stats when they support him or fit his argument. Or when he takes the one piece of evidence that supports him and make it out to be the most important piece of all time. All while ignoring everyone else's counter posts or counter evidence no matter how high it is stacked up.

I cannot wait till Messi proves him and everyone like him wrong. He's done more than Diego did at the same age. He was forcibly given the mantle too early when obviously he was not ready for it, but considering that and the tons of pressure, he played great in the world cup and the friendly games after without complaining.

I have no doubt that he will continue to improve with a much more competent but not yet perfect coach. He only needs to fix the defense and this team will go far.

 

Agreed 100% - if he can continue to keep this momentum going then this game and in particular his masterful goal in OT will definitely be the turning point.

I will remain cautious and take this game per game.

 

You are the one that said Tevez has proved his worth with the NT because he won the Olymics. SO DID MESSI. So be consistent.

Give me all the reasons he should be a sub. Go and list them.

You mentioned 50 caps. All those games are those caps so why again are you being inconsistent in your arguing? And as mentioned Messi also scored the winner against Mexico in 06 but was incorrectly called offside.

Yeah the 75% that gave Messi a standing ovation against Spain in El Monumental. Please .

Hell you were the guy criticizing Messi because he scored against Estudiantes which was insanely retarded. How much more biased can you get? Blinders.

I swear if this forum existed in 83' youd be criticizing Diego as well.

Right because like always you represent every NT fan .

Just like Tevez and every other player on the team. These are all World Class.

Basile never tried to set up Messi for anything. He was playing him with Tevez despite the fact that that clearly never worked. Messi was at his best when he had Riquelme. Of course Diego screwed that up.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Basile went crazy towards the en of his stint which is why he had to leave even if Argentina were 3rd at that point just like 1 point behind Brasil.

Never has the system ben truly made to fit Messi. Only at the Olympics maybe and look what happened.

Messi played as a CF not a CM. You understand the differences right? Towards the end Barca were playing a front line of Bojan-Messi-Pedro.

It was due to Riquelme and Messi and Di Maria and the entire defense which was excellent. Diego ignored most of them preferring to play an inexperienced Otamendi out of position. Then he benched Samuel the best CB the team had for no reason.

 

The entire team has been a mess almost since losing the Copa America final with personnel changes and formation chances and all that.There's been no consistency.

The reason Pekerman didn't win 4 matches was because he was facing Holland not Greece. Plus both teams had qualified already so it was a bullshit match.

Yeah and Diego failed tactically in the end. Badly.

 

I agree with that, althought it might be extreme to say all the players were complete garbage.

So that's an excuse for not trying? It's an excuse for not wanting to win?

Diego made mistakes, but if the rumors are to be believed then much of the blame goes to Veron for not wanting to play. Can't have it both ways Sebas.

 

Let's say Pekerman decided to field the strongest team he could against Holland. I'm talking about Crespo, Saviola, Ayala, Sorin, everyone. And he wins the match, but in the end, one of those key players gets injured (Burdisso actually got injured in that match). I doubt any Argentina fan would be like "Sweet! Pekerman just won 3 in a row!" Instead, people would be hating on Pekerman because he didn't decide to field a "B" team. And in the end, a win was not necessary to finish top of the group.

So if Veron is at fault (which is very much possible), why didn't Diego have a plan B? Why not start Pastore? Why not take Aimar to the World Cup? Why play what was virtually a 4-1-5 against Germany? The signs were on the wall against Mexico that things weren't going too well. Diego should have realised that.

 

Ask Guardiola why he uses him as a sub. It wouldn't be any different.

You are talking about a disallowed goal. It didn't count. There are no what ifs. If you want to deal in what ifs, then I think that you need to move the argument to another thread or board.

I to thought that he played exceptionally well. Unfortunately the result was tainted by the events that were taking place behind the scenes. Which was the underhanded Grondona's dealing for the 2018 WC berth.

The game was a sham.

No, you are wrong. I criticized him for celebrating the goal against Estudiantes. But only in the context that his image was tarnished at the time in Argentina.

Yes of course. If he didn't produce then yes of course Ill criticize him. No one is above the Seleccion. NO ONE!

No, NOT EVERY FAN, but I know I do represent a certain percentage. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are wrong. It's just a different opinion.

I respect your opinion and your beliefs please return the favor.

So then we do have World Class players. Which is it? First it's that La Seleccion is sub par compared to Barcelona and now we have World Class players? Which is it? Show consistency.

During the summer of '08, Basile tried his best to change the formation to help Messi become one with the team. The North American tour against Mexcio (4-1) and USA (0-0) highlighted Basile's attempt to incorporate Messi into a new system which would be centered around him. It failed and the rest is history.

So then why all the long drawn out posts?

I still think that it was more made to work around Riquelme. He was much more in tune with himself and his soccer at that time.

At the end, but before that Messi played behind Ibra who was the CF.

Olympics - DiMaria, Parejo/Mascherano Riquelme and Messi.

World Cup - The exclusion of Samuel is a HUGE mistake on Diego's part. I'll never say anything different without more information. He should have played. As far as Otamendi, well he did play the same position during the friendly in March no? Why would he cave under pressure this time around? Poor decision by Diego thinking that he was ready.

 

Holland is an Argentine rival. We have history with them. We deserve a win against them. That said I'm not advocating playing them all out, when we are already classified to the next round, and risk an injury. Pekerman played his cards right, just that unfortunately it cost him 2 pts. It's part of the game and its how the a Cup is played.

I was thinking the same thing when the game started. I'm with you on all these things. Hell I still replay that morning over and over in my head.

But there is one axiom that is repeated over and over in Argentina futbol. "Equipo que gana no se toca". Now whether you agree with this or not, its very popular and very successful. In our case, we lost, believe me when I tell you that it still hurts. I have the pain very close to my heart still.

I actually stopped watching soccer right after. I missed most of this season's Apertura in which my Velez was doing exceptionally welll and almost won it.

 

Gracias!

 

You think Guardiola uses Messi as a sub? lol
He never even takes Messi out.
Basically in the few games when Messi can be rested, Guardiola still lets him play a little, for him and for the people who bought tickets. That's your "uses him as a sub."

 

My observations are that I wonder sometimes if people here are fans of Argentina, or Messi. I don't really have an opinion on him, I don't really care what he does at Barcelona or in friendlies. The World Cup, and to a lesser extent the copa america are all that matters for Argentina.

I agree with NYC_Cosmos a little. In the Spain match were those people cheering messi, or were they cheering that D'Alessandro was coming on? The whole crowd was chanting for el cabezon to come on for the last 15 minutes, but Batista left him on the bench until messi came off. I know if I were there, i would have been welcoming La Cabezon's return to the seleccion much more than messi leaving the pitch

No matter what happens in the world cup in 2014, Messi will never be popular in Argentina the way many other players are. Some of this is due to his never having played in Argentina, but some if it is also because he basically didn't give a **** during the qualifiers. Even players like Ortega who has messed up at France 1998, his name was always chanted before every NT match he ever played in because he is a jugador como la gente. The hero's of the argentine people play like hinchas, messi does not

 

Messi always wants to play. But in the moments that he's wanted to rest, Guardiola uses him as a sub. He subs him in during the second half when defenses are tired and he breaks them in half.

It's a technique that Guardiola has used on many ocassions. It's not something used every game but it has occured.

 

I for one am an Argentina fan FIRST then Messi or any player for that matter. I DONT CARE what Messi does in Barcelona. Granted that I take pride that he's Argentine but it does NOTHING FOR ME AS AN ARGENTINE FAN. I know that for Messi fans that's hard to understand and for non Argentines as well but that's how I FEEL.

Not only was El Cabezon coming back to La Seleccion but he was doing it at El Monumental. That's huge enough for an ovation. Remember Messi really doesn't have a barra in Argentina.

++1

 

"Equipo que gana no se toca", I don't entirely agree on it. I mean, I get it and I understand the meaning behind it, but sometimes you can't go with that way of thinking. Mexico had us on the ropes and we're throwing everything at us in the first 20 minutes. And even though we won that match, it was clear there were problems. I know you said you agree with me on those points but that's why I can't agree with "equipo que gana no se toca."

And I know, it hurt us all. That loss still hurts to this day when I think about it. In a weird way, 2006 still hurts to this day and more-so than 2010.

I was an Argentina fan before Messi and I'll obviously be one after Messi. Like NYC has said, no one is above the team. It's clear that Messi struggled once Riquelme left the team and at times, like you said, it seemed like he just didn't care. And I think that was due to him being naive.

I think (and this is just me drawing conclusions, I obviously don't know him personally) that as stupid as this may seem, he didn't know the responsibilities that would come with being Argentina's #10. He never played in Argentina and never experienced Argentine futbol first hand to know how quickly the media and fans can turn against him. I don't think he expected or knew how much pressure would come with being the #10. And if you think about it, alot of players have struggled with the pressure. Ortega, Riquelme, etc... I'm not defending Messi, I think it was a wake up call for him that no matter how well he does with Barcelona, it won't change the way people perceive him in Argentina. He will not get a "free pass".

But, like I said, since the qualifiers, he's seem to have taken on the responsibility and has been doing much, much better. But to say that Messi should be benched (which was the original source of the argument if I'm not mistaken), is ridiculous considering he's finally beginning to do well with the team.