Argentina vs Germany: Final Match Game Day Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'World Cup 2014 - Knockout Rounds' started by bungadiri, Jul 11, 2014.

  1. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Now after some seemingly convincing back and forth from opinions that actually matched mine a little bit more, making me hopeful for where the argument was going, Tukafo is the one who nailed it, bringing it all back to a view that is different than mine. In spite of being guilty of the same, I agree that these comparisons across the years are not that sound, since teams can and do dramatically change in two years. Brazil in the Confeds Cup was a cohesive, organized unit with great defense, good midfield, and creative offense, which left the entire nation dreaming that the WC 2014 campaign would be a success. So much for that. It was sufficient to have Paulinho in much worse form compromising the midfield and Neymar injured compromising the creativity of the offense plus the players being all emotional and suffering from the burden of the obligation to do well at home in the WC, for the entire edifice to come down crashing in the most appalling fashion in football history. And that was only *one* year. So, yeah, maybe we shouldn't try to gauge these competitions by comparing who did what. The comparison would be more valid if the competitions had occurred, say, two months apart, with the very same players in very similar form.

    This said, I continue to consider the WC much harder to win, due to the intangibles I've extensively commented upon. I think those who think otherwise might be underestimating the power of those intangibles. Regardless of across-the-years comparisons being invalid, it remains true that the WC has had a much narrower set of winners while the field is way more open in regional competitions. This would indicate that it does take more to win a WC, and only a few national programs are able to come up with the goodies to be successful at that level.
     
  2. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Virtually all parts of Russia that count in terms of football are in Europe. Russia also has the vast majority of its population in Europe. Russia has a lot of thinly populated areas in Asia like Siberia but I don't see how this influences in any way Russia's European pedigree as far as football is concerned. Similarly, most of Brazil is a tropical jungle called the Amazonia. Virtually no football players come from it. It's sparsely populated with some indians. Brazil is not a representative of the Amazonian way to play football. Players mostly come from the developed, rich Southeastern and Southern major cities and clubs of Rio, São Paulo, Belo Horizonte, and Porto Alegre. The Amazonia is important to Brazil in terms of natural resources but has zero weight in football terms. Same with Siberia.
     
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  3. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Oh wow, it's nice to see that you are not a homer, and you're able to agree with this in spite of being a Spain fan. Well done. I'm not sure I can be as unbiased - I can be quite the homer and have my own judgment clouded by it, so, I tip my hat to you (I'm being serious here, no sarcasm).
     
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  4. raviept

    raviept Member

    Jun 11, 2010
    Braga
    Club:
    Sporting Braga
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    From my part, I was never arguing the contrary. The WC is at another level without a doubt. Debt is much more important. My argument is that the Euros are very competitive and since they take place in conditions favorable to most participating teams it is a good tournament for assessing the quality of each team, at least in terms of its starting 11. This is the "neutral" part.

    Then, there is the excitement about it, and this is really an European thing. Every two years, you get to play the qualifiers, where you face the same type of teams under the same format. If you qualify, then you go to the group stage, then multiple knockout rounds where you get to face your rivals. People gather to watch the matches, including public viewings. Winners celebrate like there was no tomorrow, except if you are German. In comparison, the WC is just a bigger party.
     
  5. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Well, good for you, you get to have twice as much fun as the other people around the world who see this differently and only get this level of excitement for the World Cup.

    I have watched the Euros, of course, since I'll watch any good football tournament, just because of my love for the sport and its entertainment value. But I'm not even close to the same level of excitement. I'll record the Euro games on DVR and watch them at home, fast-forwarding over the boring bits, like I did for the Poland-Ukraine edition. I wouldn't dream of going to a public viewing party for this, and there aren't any in my corner of the woods when the Euros are happening, unlike the World Cup. I wouldn't take time out from work to see the games live, and will just use the DVR, again unlike the WC. I also wouldn't even consider traveling to Europe to see it in person, while I've traveled to attend World Cups in person.

    For me, the value in these tournaments is vastly different. Obviously it will be different for Europeans (although technically I am part European given dual citizenship - I am also an Italian citizen - and given the fact that I lived in Europe for five years at a point in my life). Sure, I'll root for Italy in the Euros, but again, with a limited dose of passion which has absolutely no comparison to the one I experience for the World Cup.
     
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  6. Dage

    Dage Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 4, 2008
    Berlin
    Club:
    Borussia Mönchengladbach
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The point of the discussion has turnt. Look nobody really thinks that the EC comes even close to the WC for Americans or better non-Europeans. For Europeans it's almost equal at least it is very close to the WC. In fact you will have a hard time to recognize any difference between the EC and the WC during the tournaments walking through the streets in Germany, Italy or the Netherlands. The EC is almost as difficult to win as the WC which means that nobody has lifted the Euro trophy more often than Germany and Spain, with 3! times. That alone shows you how hard it is to win and also weakens the point that Spain is somewhat a one time wonder. No, they had always great teams but somehow end unlucky at the WCs. It's more a thing of fluke than anything else.
     
  7. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #1607 Pipiolo, Jul 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
    Argentina outplayed every one of its European opponents except Germany.

    As for Maradona, even at half as good or famous, he still outclasses the best German players ever. Suck it up!


    You can play this game for Copa America, and probably the African Cup too. Argentina at home went out in the quarterfinals of the last Copa America, yet made the final of the subsequent WC and reached the same stage of the preceding WC. It means nothing. Furthermore, you are giving random hand-picked samples across a span of decades whereas @dna77054 was specifically analyzing all the teams that faced Spain in one tournament. His analysis is far more substantial than your miscreant response.

    We can agree on your last paragraph, I rank the Euro as the second best international tournament and a tough one to win. But with the caveat that it remains a distant second to the WC in everythig: prestige, quality, achievement.
     
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  8. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #1608 Pipiolo, Jul 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
    LOL, Argentina is better than any Euro team besides Germany at the moment and for the foreseeable future. Your wishful rambling against reality does not make your arguments definitive :rolleyes: By the way, I am not calling that view arrogant (don't flatter yourselves), I am calling it WRONG.
     
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  9. Lemonade

    Lemonade Member

    Jun 29, 2010
    You convinced me completely.
     
  10. Tukafo

    Tukafo Member+

    Oct 12, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    I'm not sure you fully understood what I was saying which is probably my fault as I was a bit too sarcastic in my response. Yes, you can give the same examples for the Copa or the African Cup of Nations but that was exactly my point. The often repeated argument 'Greece won the Euros but did nothing at the next World Cup ergo the Euros are crap and a uselesss tournament and European football is the worst in the world' is stupid, silly snd uninformed because you can turn it around the other way too with countless examples of teams doing well in World Cups and then doing poorly in their regional championship. Teams are simply good one year snd can't sustain it. The same thing happens to club teams, we all have seen teams being sixth in the league one year, winning the league the next year and dropping to eigth the year after. It happens, not just in football but in any sport. So what you're saying is exactly making my point.
     
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  11. White/Blue_since1860

    proudly banned from 5 sub forums
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The last time I looked

    Beckenbauer: won 2 WCs(one as a player, one as coach)
    Matthäus: record holder for having played most WC games
    Klose: record holder for having scored most WC goals
     
  12. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Last time I looked Maradona is one of the greatest players in football history. Matthaus and Klose, LMAO!!
     
  13. Tukafo

    Tukafo Member+

    Oct 12, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    But surely you must admit that Guido Buchwald totally owned Maradona in the 1990 final :)
     
  14. Junster

    Junster Member

    Nov 30, 2013
    Florida
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Last time I checked.... Germany made Argentina cry every single time in last 3 world cups (2006, 2010, and 2014). :D

    Last time I checked.... Germany are 4 time World Champions. :laugh:

    Last time I checked.... Germany are the current World Champions. :cool:

    Argentina can have 1 Maradona and 1 Messi, but they ain't have 4 stars. :p
     
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  15. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

    Nov 30, 2004
    Westfalenstadion
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I bet I could be that good if I was on all them drugs too...


    Just sayin'
     
  16. LastBoyscout

    LastBoyscout Member+

    Mar 6, 2013
    If you want to play it this way, fine. But that also means, that in the last 12 years the best team in the world has been from Europe, in 2010 it was the best 3 teams, in 2006 it was even the best 4, so obviously the tournament that features the best teams in the world is a very strong one and difficult one and a team who wins it is obviously the best team in the world if the previous WC winner is from that confederation. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

    Nov 30, 2004
    Westfalenstadion
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Sucked as a manager tho... ;)

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    #1618 benztown, Jul 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
    Unfortunately, they haven't invented coaching enhancing drugs yet.

    ;)
     
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  19. guri

    guri Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    The WC has been over for almost 2 weeks and somehow the fact that Germany won is not enough for these guys, they have to still be here looking for some kind of validation, it's like they need to hear that they are the best from everyone else... hmmm ... might be worthy of some psychological study...
    Isn't there a german forum where they can sing their own praises without interruption? Wouldn't that be the logical thing to do?
    Just saying...
     
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  20. Junster

    Junster Member

    Nov 30, 2013
    Florida
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Last time I checked.... this thread is about Germany vs Argentina World Cup 2014 Final.
     
  21. White/Blue_since1860

    proudly banned from 5 sub forums
    Jan 4, 2007
    Bum zua City
    Club:
    TSV 1860 München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Argentina, Decime Qué Se Siente /
    Tener En Vuestro Continente /
    Te Juro Que Aunque Pasen Los Años/
    Nunca Nos Vamos A Olvidar /
    Que El Neuer Te Gambeteó /
    Que Götze Te Vacunó /
    Estás Llorando Desde Berlin '06 Hasta Hoy /
    Cuatro Estrellas En la Camiseta /
    La Copa Es La Nuestra /
    Götzinho Es Más Grande Que Messi /
     
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  22. benztown

    benztown Member+

    Jun 24, 2005
    Club:
    VfB Stuttgart
    A quick Google search provided me with this:
    http://www.4dfoot.com/2011/10/25/euro-2004-group-match-holland-vs-czech-republic-full-game/

    The download site seems to be a bit buggy though. I tried to download it with my Safari browser at first, which then got stuck at 99% several times. It did work with the Chrome browser though. Unfortunately, the game is with Dutch commentary.
    That's what I and others tried to tell you all along: That mythical, magic feeling is virtually the same. For a European team and its fans, the EURO is almost as big as the World Cup. Otherwise, that England vs. Portugal match I referred to wouldn't have caused such emotional responses. It really is THAT important.
     
  23. Cris 09

    Cris 09 Trololololo

    Nov 30, 2004
    Westfalenstadion
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Who is looking for validation?

    There are actually numerous debates going on here beyond Germany despite this being a Ger-Arg Final thread. The latest debate is the Euro Cup and it's perception from Europeans vs South Americans.
     
  24. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Which has been an interesting discussion although off-topic. Maybe a moderator should select all these posts and move them to a new thread about the perception of the Euro.

    Now, sincerely I find it a bit odd that someone would suspect our German friends here of fishing for validation. I think they got more than enough validation with the fourth star, their semifinal domination, and their well-played final. Losers need validation. Winners don't, because it's already in-built.
     
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  25. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Thanks for the link, I'll look into it. As for my opinions on the Euro, they were from an earlier part of this thread. Ever since, I've developed a better understanding of the importance of the tournament for you guys. Cool.
     
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