Argentina : Copa America 2019 discussion

Discussion in 'Argentina: Selecciones Nacionales' started by Rattlehead, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    This was probably the worst Copa America ever held. From the awful pitches, empty stadions to corrupt refereeing. I mean if the completely random red from no foul for Messi, after talking about the two obvious VAR-penalties don't show the corruption, or the clan culture among biased referees, nothing ever will. I think Messi achieved one of the best feats ever in Copa America, he exposed the corrupt officials for the casual public.
     
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  2. Highlander_

    Highlander_ New Member

    Jul 8, 2019
    Vickery with a positive take on things:

    https://www.espn.co.uk/football/cop...theyve-won-something-better-messis-engagement

    [What has become apparent in the course of this Copa, though, is that Messi's behaviour has changed. He is a more vocal figure, encouraging teammates on the pitch, speaking at length to journalists after the matches. He has grown into the idea of being a leader for this new generation.]

    [​IMG]


    Not surprisingly, Messi taking a more vocal approach is drawing some negative criticism from the Brazil camp:

    https://www.espn.com/soccer/copa-america/story/3896327/messi-must-accept-when-he-loses-brazil-boss
     
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  3. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Messi has actually gotten praise for being vocal, and many Brazilian pundits have said this is a good thing because it shows that he cares, and that was something that Brazilians saw Argentinians criticizing Messi for before (not caring enough).

    The criticism is largely because he chose to frame it as clear cut corruption, that the tournament had been bought. It's understandable he feels that way and the passion is a positive.

    However, it's also understandable that people would call him out because, like any big name player and big name team, he sometimes benefits from bad calls or poor refereeing too and because a figure as important as him in the game should be more careful with his words.

    At any rate, I am not hear to start a back and forth, I did want to point out the criticism of Messi is not for speaking up or being vocal, it's for a specific part of what he said.
     
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  4. Pekerman

    Pekerman Member+

    May 20, 2006
    Can't recall any instance of Messi receiving favorable treatments from refs with the NT. In fact, he doesn't even get the small calls. Plenty of times in this tournament alone he was chopped down with no call given. Happens all the time in the qualifiers too. Refs are out there almost trying to prove a point. However, in this tournament it's a clear cut case of corruption if aguero gets vared then no second goal Brazil and even if no penal is given its still 1-0 with plenty of time..
     
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  5. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    And perhaps he hasn't gotten any while playing for the NT. I think that's unlikely, but I can easily accept for the sake of discussion that he's never gotten anything on the level of the Arthur/Ottamendi non-call.

    The claim is that this shit happens and it's probably benefited him at some point and definitely benefited Argentina at some point (not necessarily with him). No one called out specific incidents. It's simply a general statement that this goes both ways and jumping straight to corruption in his reaction is over the top.
     
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  6. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007
    Jose Luis Chilavert (Paraguay legend): "The Conmebol is killing football. Why they are going to sanction Messi, if we live in a democratic world? Without a doubt the tournament was set up for Brazil to win. The players should unite and boycott Conmebol." [la red via md]
     
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  7. Highlander_

    Highlander_ New Member

    Jul 8, 2019

    And Rivaldo Brazilian legend (lol):

    "As I've mentioned before, I don't agree with VAR technology and I believe the repeated pauses in play are ruining games," he said in his column on Betfair.

    "In the Copa America semifinal between Brazil and Argentina on Wednesday, there were two potential penalties for the visitors, but VAR didn't help and Argentina were justified in complaining.

    "It probably wouldn't have changed the outcome of the match, because Brazil are a better team than Argentina now, but that's not the point."


    Although I'm not sure I agree with him entirely on Brazil being a better team as we have seen really seen Argentina find their footing in the last 2-3 games.
     
  8. Siempre_Albiceleste

    May 31, 2006
    NY
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Well put! The point is that a ref can be incompetent, biased, and fail under the pressure of a home crowd, without being some grand conspiracy by the organizers. Messi is justified in his frustration, and that is to be understood. But following him to the conclusion that this was a conspiracy is misguided.
     
  9. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007

    I am not so sure.

    I mean, no one is blaming the Brazilian players. Messi is not blaming the Brazilian players either.

    It is in no way the players’ fault — but I have seen too many instances where there is conspiracy to try to make someone win.

    Italy 1938; sending of Rattin in the 66 QF for England at home; Germany’s state approved doping in 1974; our run in 1978 under the dictatorship; Germany’s so-called pen against us in 1990 after we had knocked out Italy; South Korea 2002 vs both Italy and Spain; Platini admitting to rigging the balls so France will avoid Brazil in 1998 until the final, etc....

    Not saying all are true— but there are definitely instances where the organizers were plotting, in my mind.

    I mean, if the organizers were so clean — they would have answered Argentine FA’s official request to ask for the communication between the VAR Room and the referee during our semi with Brazil.

    Three things could have happened—

    1. The VAR Room asked the referee to review it, and he said no — which puts the ref’s honesty into question.

    2. The VAR Room told the referee that he was right in his decision, which puts the VAR Room’s honesty into question.

    3. VAR wasn’t working for whatever reason. In this case, the organizers should have come out, admitted their mistake, and let everyone know VAR wasn’t working.

    The fact that the organizers never explained clearly what went on — makes me think more than ever there was something fishy.

    Because if they tried to explain it, in every way, they would be caught.
     
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  10. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Barcelona, Inter Milan
    Argentina
    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #1660 Rattlehead, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    Also, by saying that kind of thing could also benifit Argentina at some point , its basically means that you could simply cheat or pay the ref and then claim other team also has similar adventage at some point in the past or maybe in the future.

    To put it simple, that guy is saying.. "its ok to cheat because other team or player has also done that before and escaped with it."

    Maradona used his hand as had a lucky escape, but does that mean Tulino's handgoal against Argentina in Copa 1995 was ok because Argentina player has done that in the past? is Henry's handball is ok aswell because there's already many example of handball in the past?

    If Brazil is in the opposite situation, lets say they're losing a match in which the ref is clearly bias toward their team .... similar to refereeing in 1990 final or 2002 round 16 (Italy vs S Korea) , do you think Brazillians will not say anything ?
     
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  11. Siempre_Albiceleste

    May 31, 2006
    NY
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Actually, he said none of that. What he said is that those things happen in football, sometimes to your benefit, sometimes against you. It doesn't make it right or okay, but you can't complain corruption w/o actual non-circumstantial evidence.
    Where I disagree with him wholeheartedly is that those calls wouldn't have affected the outcome, because Brazil has the better side. To me, clearly Brazil did not show themselves to be the better side, goals aside. Nor was it an Argentina domination, as many here would like to paint it.
     
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  12. Albiceleste2010

    Albiceleste2010 Member+

    Watford
    Argentina
    Jun 5, 2010
    Watford
    Club:
    Watford FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Well that is the crux of the matter. CONMEBOL officials are in general a level below their UEFA counterparts. I don't think I would see a Kuipers, Skomina etc etc be so rank in incompetence or be swayed by the crowd. And not to be able to use VAR either. These referees from UEFA referee at a higher level and more consistently. Let us not make any bones about this the refereeing in the games involving us was shocking and biased. I immediately had suspicions when Tagliafico was booked by this turd from Ecuador who came sprinting over to brandish the card.
     
  13. Albiceleste2010

    Albiceleste2010 Member+

    Watford
    Argentina
    Jun 5, 2010
    Watford
    Club:
    Watford FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Aside from the opening quarter of an hour we controlled that game. We exerted our midfield at last. People are implying cravenly, mistakenly, foolishly or a combination of all three that Brazil were deliberately sitting back. We forced the game. Brazil are a terrible team nothing out of the ordinary and had the officials to thank themselves for this corrupt win.
     
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  14. Burr

    Burr Member+

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Jul 8, 2014
    Tampa, FL
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I still think Brazil were consistently the best team in the tournament so it wasn't the biggest travesty that they won, but with competent officiating that game was headed to extra time at least.
     
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  15. Siempre_Albiceleste

    May 31, 2006
    NY
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    The matter being discussed here was "corruption", which makes that contribution somewhat not applicable.
    Also, must I make a compilation of UEFA ref disasters? Because as someone who's been watching European football for the better part of 3 decades, I'm sure I can find a few matches I've seen that were reffed worse than this one. The Eurocentric arrogance quite frankly perplexes me.
     
  16. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Barcelona, Inter Milan
    Argentina
    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Argentina only had 1 scoreless game on the way to the semifinal, Brazil had 2 scoreless game and reached semi by winning a shootout, yet some people seems to think they're head & shoulders above the other teams lol... they're not.

    There's not a single outstanding team in this tournament & thats a fact. Just look at how Uruguay & Colombia started the tournament, everybody started to say they're favorites, yet we finished well above them. We scores against Paraguay & Venezuela, yet Brazil couldnt get any and they played Paraguay 120 minutes.
     
  17. Burr

    Burr Member+

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Jul 8, 2014
    Tampa, FL
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah they're not head and shoulders above. I just mean they didn't have a rough start or lose any game like we did. Just steady enough to get by.
     
  18. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The performance of several UEFA referees at WC18 was even worse, especially in relation to VAR.
     

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