Lately, I got the information about Arena's plans for the incoming game against Argentina. Among other things, he is gonna play Convey as a left full back. The same position he played against Canada. More than that, it seems to me that Arena and Ray have a mutual understanding (belief) that Convey is a wing not a central player. Actually, Arena is pushing the envelope by having Convey playing full left back. My question is : Why is he doing that, what strategical purpose such a dumb move will serve ????....I do not buy the "young guns" theory!! I cannot believe, an experienced coach, like him,can knowingly make such a big mistake. There is only one explanation, IMHO. He wants to please somebody with big influence with the MLS owners.(KP)??? Otherwise, it is beyond my comprehension sending Convey on the left back to be killed by the Argentinian ofense. I hope he is not playing "politics" with the Nats !!! Although, I have seen mistakes like this in the past !! Sometimes, National teams'coaches believe they are "Gods" and things they are wishing, in their minds, will become reality on the field. Unfortunately, their are not alone "under the sun" !!! There are some others alike!!......... PS. Unrelated to the subject : It comes to my knowledge, Ray is very high about a Georgian young player coming to the tryout camp in Florida. What does it mean for the starting team ???
Sormun. I think what Arena is attempting to do is trying to get quick, agile players to play on the flanks of his defense so that they can transition from defense to offense without hesitation.. He has done this successfully in the past with converted midfielders playing his outside fullback positions (most recently Tony Sanneh and Frankie Hejduk).. As for Convey not playing centrally yet for Arena, that has more to do with the availability of both Donovan and Mathis to Arena than it does to Convey's skill.. Bobby is still only 19 and has better players above him in the pecking order - Donovan, Mathis, O'Brien and Reyna just to name a few.. Bobby's time will come.. His playing as a left back is not etched in stone in the least.. Remember, had Wade Barrett been in camp, he would have started at left back for the USA against Canada but he was on trial getting a contract with Aarhus in Holland...
Could you please attempt to pose a question or present a theory based on your opinion, but not both simultaneously. You are very manipulative with this post. You ask a question to which you already have framed an answer. What is the point of responding? [get my drift?] Tim
This seems a little too conspiratorial to be plausible to me. My take is that the only "politics" for Bruce from here to 2006 is to win -- if he does that with me and my long deceased grandfather as forwards, he'll be a hero; if he doesn't do well, then it doesn't matter who he plays, he'll be the goat.
Pssst, don't tell the Danes living in Aarhus that their city has been sold to the Dutch... As for the theory that someone in MLS is pulling Arena's strings... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Arena did exactly the same thing in 1998 - took marginal national team players, inexperienced national team players, out of favor ex-national team players, guys that never got a look at the national team and current national team players and let them play a series of friendlies and small competetions like the Confederations Cup, US Cup, and Gold Cup. Then he watched and selected the best of those players for WC qualifying, while still giving "new stars" a chance in a game or two. From this pool of players, he selected his 23 to go to World Cup 2002. I have a hard time believing that he won't do that again...
What's wrong with the national team coach experimenting in friendlies? Isn't that the reason a national team schedules friendlies in the first place? And who says it's a mistake to play Convey at left back, sormun or Arena? I don't know sormun's coaching achievements, but I admit that I'm pretty impressed with what Arena has accomplished. If Bruce thinks he can play Convey as a fullback, so be it. The only person making a mistake is the guy who started this thread.
Well, Being Bruce Arena I can see that... Imagine if I can get this Convey kid (and he's still a kid, so he can learn a lot yet) playing solid defense. He's got the brains and the speed and the quickness and the competitive attitude. Will he be strong enough? Let's see how quickly he picks it up. 'Cause he could compete for a central spot with Landon or Clint, or a wing spot with Beasely, Eddie, Ben, or Earnie...but if he can play defense too. Woo hoo, it'd be like a healthy John O'Brien. Our left back position could be world class with either Bobby or JOB back there... That's my guess. How big is Bobby these days anyway? I mean imagine Convey winning the ball and starting the counter, who do you want dribbling out of the defensive third and making the outlet pass, Convey or Barret (or Berhalter)?
Sormun, you are biased against Convey. If you read that Arena was putting Convey on the bench against Argentina, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd posted... "What is Arena thinking? Doesn't he know that the presence of such a terrible player even on the bench will motivate the Argies by showing how much dis-respect we have for them?" Arena is using the next 2 years to experiment like crazy. Expect to see mostly international novices and guys in new positions (mulrooney, convey, Victorine). Because WCQs start in 1.5 years. And he doesn't want to be doing experimenting then--he wants to either be able to call in Sanneh or Berhalter or Pope, or know which of his experiments paid off to pair up with the heir apparents (Bocanegra, Barrett, Vanney, Gibbs). Additionally, I like the idea of trying to get as much technical ability and speed as possible on the field. One last point, for Convey's age, he is an international veteran. Capped against Brazil. One of the youngest guys on his U-17 team (with Donovan and DMB and Beckerman). Olympic side. He has represented the US for a phenomenal number of matches given his age. So he's not as raw as we make him out to be.
Nice thread Sormun. I appreciate your objectivity. I agree that Convey is not the answer at left back. I love they guy's game, but he's just not the defender that you want there and against a good strong attacking team he is going to be exposed. But one thing everyone seems to conveniently forget is how Bruce Arena develops young players with the national team. It's a "position progression" thing. At least that's how I see it. Here's some examples: Donovan Played predominantly at forward. Arena stressed to him that if he didn't improve his defending he wouldn't play. Donovan improved his defending. Donovan saw minutes at forward, the position where mistakes are the most tolerable. As Donovan showed his continued success, Arena played him some as a wing midfielder. Obviously midfield requires fewer mistakes than forward because losing possession in midfield makes for a much more difficult counter to defend. As it is, wing midfielder is a position that can accept more inconsistent play than central midfielder. Plus you have the sideline to assist in defending and many teammates to back you up if you get beaten. Now Arena is giving Donovan some time in the center. It was a progression. Donovan went forward-->wing midfielder-->central midfielder. Now he can play all three effectively, and that makes him very valuable to Arena. DaMarcus Despite everyone under the sun agreeing that wing midfield is DaMarcus' best position, where did Arena put him much of the time he included him in the Nat's squad? Forward! Can DaMarcus play forward, yes. Is DaMarcus best suited to play there, no. Was DaMarcus the best option up top, no. So why play him there? Because it is a position that can tolerate many mistakes. Young players--and anyone making the jump up in caliber to full team international play--are going to make mistakes. To build their confidence it is best to allow them to make mistakes and encourage them to be aggressive. So, DaMarcus was put in a position to encourage aggressive play. Eventually he "progressed" to his natural spot at wing midfield. DaMarcus went forward-->wing midfield. Mastroeni OK, well I and many of us were probably incorrect in assuming he was best suited for right back. But, he also followed a positional progression. The least important defending position is fullback in a 4 man back line. Mistakes made here can be covered by the center backs. You have both the sideline and endline to help you defend. Mastroeni saw time there, but Arena knew he could do more. So while Mastroeni did start there and succeed, Arena tried to accellerate his development (because it took a while for Pablo to get his eligibility to play) and shifted him quickly to the next most important defensive position, central defense. Arguably it is the most important position, but IMHO, the Dmid is the most important. While Mastroeni didn't do outstanding there, and wasn't the best player there, it was a progression. It taught Mastroeni responsibility and allowed him to focus exclusively on defending at the tougher international level. Once he was comfortable defending in the tight space of central defending, he was promoted to Dmid. At Dmid he could use his speed and ability to read the game to enhance his defensive skills. Also, he was able to work on his possession. His progression was fullback-->central defender-->Dmid. I think Arena wants Convey to play in midfield, but cannot justify it yet. Before Convey will be afforded the opportunity to play central midfield, he needs to prove himself as a left winger. Unfortunately, DaMarcus has already done that, so Convey's time would either be as a spot back up or would require him being pushed up into the forward line or back into the defensive line. IMHO, Arena recognizes two things. 1) DaMarcus has excellent defensive skills instilled by Bob Bradley, and 2) DaMarcus and Convey have a good chemistry and comfort level together. So, Convey and DaMarcus can combine well and cover for one another defensively while essentially sharing the wing midfield and left back spot. DaMarcus is comfortable doing this as he essentially did a similar thing with Diego Gutierrez in Chicago. I see Convey's progression as this, fullback/wing midfield-->wing midfield-->central midfield. While Convey's defending isn't good enough to be a full time left fullback, he hasn't seen any time against tough competition in an important game there either. Arena is giving Convey a chance to showcase his skills and compete internationally. Combining with DaMarcus on the left to share those responsibilities helps Convey intially, not hurts him. Convey is playing a Roberto Carlos type role at fullback, and to Phil Scolari and myself, that's really a wing midfield role. Don't jump to conclusions that Arena is playing Convey at left back because that's where he projects him for competing at in 2006. It just isn't consistent with his prior use of player progression. -Tron
In early 2002 Arena was trying Richard Mulrooney (holding midfielder with SJ) as a right back to try to fill a hole and find a spot for a reasonably-talented MLS player. Same situation here with Convey.
I have to second this. Arena has always been known to do what he wants and say what he wants. This upset some people and there was a chance it would prevent him from getting the national team job. It didn't. I don't think Arena is letting those people push him around now. If Convey is playing left back, it's because Arena wants to see how well he plays left back.
Ok fair enough, you guys believe Arena is willing to try Convey as a left back. He did that before( rotating players in diferent positions) he will do it again. Well, it is OK with me but, not against Argentina !! There should be a little respect for the former WCs. I have nothing against experiments when playing Canada or Jamaica but, I disagree doing that against Argentina. Secondly, I am dead serious about Arena and Ray getting to the conclusion that Convey is a winger not a central player. You are gonna see both coaches playing Convey on the wing, unrelated to the other players on the roster. They, just do not see Convey as a central player !!! IMHO, a severe loss against Argentina in a friendly game is still a loss with international implications. About the timing of those "experiments", It is true there is enough time before the qualifications games and all kind of tryouts are permitted. But, keep in mind, there are a limited number of games available to tryout players and team formulas. I just cannot see the benefit in using as a left back a player that is struggling playing defense in his regular team. I mean, Arena knows Convey has limited defense skills and he is lacking physical strenth. Why taking almost a certain loosing chance when he can try many other players with much more defensive skills than Convey. It, really,bothers me the ideea to try a loosing chance against rational jugement. That is why,I have suggested some "irrational" explanation.
i agree, Convey did very well in that position from my observation during US-Canada, this days left and right back are considered fancy positions, they have to be able to go forward as Convey and Sasha did, also Roberto Carlos or John O'B did for their respective clubs.
... Yet. I agree with you that Arena isn't going to play Convey centrally for a while. It's all about position progression for Arena. But, Rongen does, and Convey has impressed everyone there. Hudson tried him in the middle at the end of last season and he did superbly. I think Hudson will not play Convey centrally because he has a glut of central players and a real dearth of left wings. Eskandarian can play there, but he's really a forward. Eliseo can play there, but he's really too slow for the position in a 352. Ditto for Alegria, who isn't even left footed. Everyone else there is a stretch except perhaps Woodstock, who would be a major projection considering where he was drafted, etc. So, Hudson really has no other choice for left wing, therefore I agree that it is where Ray will play Convey. But I do disagree about whether it would be best for United. The trade of Justin Mapp (left winger with awesome potential) for Dema Kovalenko (central attacking mid or right winger) ended Convey's chance to play centrally. Yeah, Olsen can play on the left, but Hudson's not going to play him there. Last season I advocated trying a 352 with the Dmid/Hmid pair of Reyes and Olsen. Everybody thought I was crazy. Well, Reyes can clearly do the job if necessary (and last season Nelsen was needed on the back line so the other options were Richie Williams, Ivan McKinley or Lazo Alavanja at Dmid), and Arena just played Olsen as a central midfielder. Now Ray sounds like he's going to play a 442/352 with Reyes a combo RB/RW and Olsen pinching in centrally almost as an Hmid. Make what you will with that, but I found it interesting at least. -Tron
First of all sormun, the USA is long past respecting past WC opponents.. We are at the point that we can beat any country on Earth at any time.. You can deny this all you want, but it's the truth now and it's only going to get better for the USA as we are now producing silly youth players through MLS.. The days of us looking across the field and saying "Wow, that's Argentina over there" are long gone.. We would never be able to compete with world powers if we quake in their presence all the time.. This is 2003, not 1993... Sormun, with all due respect, I don't think you have much respect for the USA and what they have accomplished in recent history.. And lastly, can we at least play Argentina first before you decree that we suffer a "severe loss" as you put it.. Shock of all shocks Sormun, we just might win this match though of course you think there is no way the USA can win this match... What will you say if the USA actually shocks the world and wins this game? Probably the usual excuses you trot out... By the way, the last time we played the mighty Argentines, we won 1-0 right here at good ol' RFK stadium in front of 40,000 people and that was against a team featuring Zanetti, Simeone and Claudio Lopez...
Now is the time that Arena and all national teams are supposed to do their experimenting. I believe the Argentina team we are playing was all players receiving their first cap when they played Costa Rica. (I think that was the team.)
OK, so if Arena plays Convey at left back Saturday, and he sucks, Sormun gets to say "I told you so." And if he plays great, everyone else will "say I told you so." My prediction: Convey will be mediocre at left back, and the debate will continue...
Sormun Argentina didn't make it out of England's group either. And considering we stuck it to Mexico, we probably would've done alright in Italy's group too.
Friendlies are all about experimenting, no matter who the opponent is. Never ever play anyone like they will beat us. The US is no longer a soccer minnow. There's no point behaving like one anymore. And really, who cares if we lose? It's not like it really matters anyway.
sornum, I think you are fundamentally missing the point here. While Bruce Arena respects every soccer team, he does not fear them. Bruce Arena and the present USA national team respect every team, e.g. Mexico in 2002 WCQ, but the do not fear them. That is why Bruce Arena has been so succesful. That is why Bruce Arena will continue to play the players he wants in the position he wants them to play. (Roberto Carlos is not really a left full back, and neither is Cafu a right full back) That is why Bruce Arena will continue to be succesful. Bowing to soccer powers is for minnows.
Bobby Convey can flat-out play, period. I don't care if you put him as attacking mid, left wing, or left back, this kid can play against any team. He will not be embarassed wherever Arena puts him.
Well said, Bruce knows what he's doing, he;s just doing the same thing he did four years ago, when all is said and done, it will be another magical summer in 2006 that will please us all... -PB20