Arena and "Development"

I agree, Arena to a certain extent targets players development onto the national team by step by step phase.

Currently, the development of depth creates a little on the number of young talent who can be brought along this way.

Gaven and Adu, and any of the young guns have more bodies to gop through to get into a position to play full time.

I do suspect Adu has a time frame in Arenas mind, and I suspect gaven does too, but playing meaningful wcq matches for either in NOT in the equation.

For a Gaven and Adu, performance on TEAM becomes even more critical to get this look, without player performance forcing Arena to incorporate the young kids into a camp.

 

I'd say that Arena develops them.

First, he retrains them in new positions. Convey at left back. Albright at right back.

Second, even when he plays them in their club position, he reinterprets their roles for them. Arena recently stated that while Chris Armas plays a 2-way role for the Chicago Fire, contributing to the Fire's attack, Armas is expected to play a "very limiting" role for the U.S. National team, as a destroyer and a destroyer alone.

Third, and most fundamentally, he has them playing a different style of ball. The English team looks like the EPL. The Germans look like Bundesliga. The Itlalians look like Serie A. The U.S. team does not look like MLS. The U.S. team plays much faster and with a much higher level of defensive pressure than do MLS teams.

 

You're going to base that on positions players were in for like what 3-4 games? Arena doesn't develop players, sometimes he puts players in new positions like listed above, but he doesn't develop players. That is John Ellinger's job, that is every MLS coach's job, that's not Arena's job.

 

All-star post that completely debunks the myth that part of Arena's job isn't developing players into his system and the US team.

Well done John.

 

Adam,

I agree with most of what you said except this. I firmly believe Gaven will play himself on the team, possibly becoming a valued/starting player sometime during qualifying.

Freddy, well that's way too early to say. Eddie is almost ready though!

 

I guess this all depends on what you mean by "development."

If by development you mean, "he's not NAT material now, and we're not sure if he ever will be, but we'll bring him into camp so he has a chance at BECOMING a NAT" -- well, that sort of development is decidedly not happening. Nor should it. National team camp is not a place to "get better" or "get good enough" to play for the USMNT.

But if by development you mean, "he soon will be NAT material (or we believe he already is), and we're bringing him into camp because he needs to get the experience of playing the way we do at the USMNT" -- well, that sort of "development" is appropriate.

This may seem like a hair-splitting distinction, but I think it's a useful and a significant one.

Also, you have to make distinctions about the timing of a player's participation with the national team relative to his career arc, as well as a hierarchy of caps. At 17, Bobby Convey was ready to get capped, but not ready to play in a meaningful qualifer. At 17, DaMarcus Beasley was ready to do neither--but at 19, with 50 MLS games under his belt, and huge improvements in all phases of his game to go along with his speed and tenacity, he was ready to start against Portugal in the first round.

Depends.

Remember, too, there is also a progression arc in the national team too. Beasley had his 1st cap in a friendly against China. Mastroeni I think was also first capped in a "meaningless" friendly.

What this means, of course, is that you do not throw completely new talent out there when the games REALLY mean something -- even against a minnow like Grenada. Stakes are too high. That's why you bring the best group at THAT moment, even if they seem like the "usual suspects."

 

Honestly, I am not sure what else Eddie can do to prove that he's ready. Does he have to lead the league in assists or something? Or maybe he has to prove that he can quickly adapt to a change in the pace of the game around him and be an impact player quickly? Or maybe he has to prove that he can physically hack it and mix it up with men twice his age?

My guess is that what Arena wants to see is consistency. If Eddie were to just maintain his current level of play, and not improve (and I've seen improvement on almost a weekly basis), then at some point he's in.

On a different note - anyone catch "Clint!!!" against KC this week? He was Gavenesque, I tell ya.

 

Adam, see the thread

The Freddy Adu Timetable -- or the parallel universe of DMB

https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112960

You'll see that both player's timing is almost EXACTLY the same, just at a different cycle.

I may start a thread on the the number of 1st team professional games players have had before their first cap. I haven't looked, but I would guess Eddie Gaven has fewer than 30 MLS games, and probably around half again as many starts. That means he is about a year away, more or less from a call up. And if he gets a cap, it will likely be in a "meaningless" friendly. He may be headed for the USMNT, but not for a while yet.

 

I wouldn’t call it hair-splitting at all. There are different levels of development, two of which you described well. You could argue that the full US National team (or any other national team) should undertake the first sort of development (guys that are clearly not ready for the Nats yet) you mention, and at one time ours actually did (Bora’s boys in 1992-93). But you’re right, our Nats don’t do that now, and I would argue that they shouldn’t. It’s too expensive, and the clubs and the youth national program are already doing that job (and pretty well, I think).

However, there is development that occurs once a player reaches the full national team. Particularly, players have to adjust to the different style of play (and it is different, even if some fans can’t see it). That kind of development can only happen in full nats camp and more particularly in actual matches, so obviously Bruce has to do that part.

Bingo. The natural progression for virtually all national teams that I’m aware of follows two tracks – 1. players rise through the club system and make their name at the pro level before they ever get a look with their national team, or 2. players rise through the youth national team ranks and get sparse national team looks until they start getting serious play with their clubs.

The players in group 2 usually get looks before those in group 1. So a Freddy Adu or Bobby Convey or Chris Albright might get a look for the nats within their first couple of years at the club level, whereas a Kerry Zavagnin or Johnny Walker will have to slog away in the pros for several years before they get their first look. That’s just the way it works, and not just here in the US. You give these guys caps in meaningless games and let them prove it while they get adjusted to the international game. If they do well, you keep giving them looks and eventually they’ll be ready for qualifiers and the World Cup.

 

My guess is like your but different in one important respect -- I think Arena was to see a longer pattern of consistentcy.

In other words, he wants a reasonable level of experience and seasoning, proof that you can sustain excellence and/or display danger over the course of a significant number of first team professional games.

Right now, in his second year as professional, Eddie Gaven has played in just 20 MLS games, and has had 15 starts. He has just over 1400 minutes of 1st division professional soccer -- 15 games worth. That is not very much at all.

If you call up such a player -- unless he is an astonishingly unbelievable gifted once in a century phenom, who happens to be incredibly fit to boot, and/or we desperately need to him to qualify -- you do so is an environment where there isn't a ton of pressure, or the stakes are not incredibly high for the national team program.

You do it, as Arena did it with Beasley, in a friendly against the likes of China. And you do it sometime around the end of the 2nd or the beginning of your third year as a professional.

Our program isn't that weak that we HAVE to bloody a inexperienced kid like Gaven right now...nor is Gaven SO strong a player that he demands to be rostered. We have other options now, and there's a time to every purpose. His time is not now, but could be soon, relatively speaking for a national team program.

 

This experience uber alles talk is starting to wear thin with me.

I want Arena to choose the best players, period. If Earnie Stewart is one of the best 22 healthy American players in the world right now, I haven't seen evidence of it.

Why should Bruce choose a guy whose had a chance to play 6000 minutes for the National Team and still hasn't solidified his spot (Kirovski), over a guy four years younger playing as well or better in MLS who hasn't been given a chance to show what he can do at this level. Kirovski has experience at this level alright, he has experience playing poorly. Is that the kind of experience Bruce is looking for?

This isn't about playing worse players in the hopes they get better, this is simply recognizing when younger players have passed their older counterparts in playing ability.

 

Well, it may be wearing thin on YOU, but does your frustration have any currency if it doesn't figure one iota into the decision making of the national team coaching braintrust? Perhaps they have a clue on this one maybe?

Look, Kirovski didn't see the field, let alone the 23-man roster, of the last WC, and he's likely to have the same thing happen to him again. Why get worked up over his call to play against...ahem...Grenada?

Meanwhile, he's an acceptable alternative for now...he can do a job that needs to be done in the professional manner...as long as we don't assume that somehow that puts him on a path to WC stardom. It clearly doesn't.

Eddie Gaven may, in the end, be twice or three times the national team player Jovan Kirvoski is or has been (or maybe not, hard to tell even now), but you cannot simply dismiss experience as a non-factor in callups -- or what kind of callups a player has to have at any given point in his career arc to move him down the proper path at the proper pace.

You don't put players in situations where the likelihood of them failing -- or, from another perspective, not succeeding suffiicently for their potential -- is greater than it should be. Why do that? National team coaches need to take a longish term view on this score. You bring players in at the right time and at the right circumstances. This doesn't seem to be all that controversial to me, but then again, I value patience and timing.

It's not that you need a LOT of experience: it seems to me only reasonable that there should be SOME degree of an experience threshold, more or less, depending on the player. Otherwise we would simply bring ONLY those players who are HOT right now in MLS.

Frankly, if a national team coach did THAT, we'd have the equivalent of an internet lynch mob on our hands here on glorious Big Soccer.

Of course, this is the same kind of fevered passion in the guise of ostensible meritocracy here on BS that demanded that Jeff Cunningham get his "shot." Well, he got it, finally, and a fat lot of good it did him. Jeff shouldn't have listened to his BS faithful..he should have played for Jamaica, because his national team career here in the USA is likely over.

 

What if I feel the same way about the concept of "HOT" players as I do experience: that it matters a little, I suppose, but I'd prefer to simply have the better player.

All I want is the best players. Instead of relying on things like experience and level of hotness, things whose overall importance on the outcomes of games are difficult to assess, I'd rather rely on things like the players speed, passing ability, dribbling ability, positioning, movement away from the ball, shooting accuracy, crossing ability, touch and ball control, etc. While Jovan Kirovski may be way more experienced than Edson Buddle, Edson Buddle is way faster than Jovan. Why does Jovan's experience trump Edson's speed?

In sports things like experience and leadership are usually garbage dumps: places where a coach justifies his decisions in favor of player when the stuff people normally look at goes against said player. In Baseball it got so comical that in the HACKING MASS contest at the start of the seasons (an anti-fantasy league, the idea is to pick the worst players in the upcoming season), people started calling their teams things like "Veteran Leadership." "Veteran leadership" became code for "player who has sucked out loud for years but continues to have a job anyway beyond all logic and reason." Eventually guys like Rico Brogna and Joe Girardi get so bad that everyone finally sees the light, but not after they've been a drain on whatever team they've played for in the last three years.

I see no evidence that it's any different in Soccer. Earnie Stewart is not as fast as he was, his touch isn't good, his reactions have slowed a bit. His MLS club whom he was supposed to be a savior of hasn't gotten any better. Earnie was a fine player in his day and by all accounts a teriffic guy, but he's older than ESPN2's color commentator and he's currently an unremarkable player, on an unremarkable team in an unremarkable league. You rip on Jeff Cunningham, but Cunningham is a significantly more effective player in this league right now than Earnie is. But we're now supposed to ingore all that because Earnie provides "veteran leadership."

If a cakewalk of a qualifier against Grenada isn't a good time to give some younger players qualifying experience, when is?

 

First of all, qualifiers are NOT cakewalks, regardless of the opponent on the day. Second, there is nothing that says a whole new roster will not called in for the second leg if we put up a sufficient scoreline in the first one to make the overall result moot (7-0 or more).

To touch just a bit on the Stewart inclusion, I for one believe he has a purpose on this team, and not just for his "veteran leadership". From the full 22 announced on Thursday, he would probably make the bench and come in late to spell one of the attacking midfielders. Now, with Wolff removed, I would not be surprised to see Earnie get the start on Sunday and Donovan move up top to partner McBride. He is one of the few US players in the player pool at the moment (and Bruce needs to start acclimating more players to it as the year progresses) with experience playing in the box with the set of players in camp for this match. Will he still be one of the top options at this position in a year? Probably not, nor is he the best option now when Bruce has his top XI in camp. But for this match, at this time, I do not see another player I would want to go with because the result is THAT IMPORTANT! If we do our job in Columbus, then other players can be called in for the match at St. George's.

 

Much better players than gaven have been overwhelmed by the pressure of a first cap. It just makes sense to let them experience putting on the shirt for a first time without playing, then by playing in short time, then by starting in a friendly. In the end, it's just another game, but players who haven't done it forget.
And a player in a first cap who freaks and makes a bad decision that costs his nat team a wcq can be ruined for nat play forever. Not likely to happen, but why risk it when there is no need?

 

Not speaking specifically of Gaven, but why exactly then is Earnie Stewart playing in a friendly before qualifying. It isn't like Bruce hasn't had the opportunities to blood in some younger players in friendlies. This wouldn't be Kyle Martino's first cap, for example, and he might be an excellent guy to use on the right side of a box midfield against a bunkering team. The kid was rookie of the year three years ago, so Bruce has had plenty of time to pick his spots. He hasn't.

When Bruce was busy screwing around with John Wolyniec earlier this year, couldn't he have been better advised spending that time on younger talents like Pat Noonan or Edson Buddle?

Brian Mullan was the best right midfielder in the league last year, and possibly has been the best again this year, and yet he hasn't managed to get a cap despite possessing all of the physical abilities and work rate necessary for the international game.

In the past two years, Chris Klein has outplayed Earnie in MLS AND on the National Team, so what is the argument for Earnie over him?

And as far as Gaven is concerned, Bruce could have thrown him out there in the Honduras friendly just to see what would happen. It isn't like it would be a gift to the kid as his play has certainly been worthy of the many accolades its been getting. Myself, I'd wait on Gaven a little longer, but not so that I could continue to trot Earnie out there some more.

"Much better players than gaven have been overwhelmed by the pressure of a first cap." This may be true (examples?) but much better players than Earnie Stewart have been kicked from their National Team in favor of younger models. Arjen Robben made the Dutch squad for Euro 2004 and he's only two months older than Eddie Johnson. The Dutch aren't lacking for more experienced alternatives, but they chose to go with the talented kid instead.

Of Arena's original 22 man roster, Gibbs and Casey are the only two to have received their first caps after WC 2002. The other 20 had received caps prior to WC 2002 (since then Jonny Walker's been added). Many think Gibbs is going to be cut, so that would make 1 out of 18 players who have recieved their first cap in the last two years.

All I'm trying to say, and I realize many here disagree, is that I think that rate of introduction of players is too slow.

 

My belief is Arena already knows who he wants to use during wcq.

The object of wcq is to advance, Gibbs and Casey would be back-ups in the case a central defender or mcbride get injured....

I don't believe arena wants to mess around with too many new faces.

Ideally getting to an olympics, or a gold cup are environments where talented younger players like gaven or mapp can be blooded in competitive environments.

as to klein, he's been around long enough for arena to know where he fits in the grand scheme.

as to grenada, i'd continue with the casey / mcbride pairing because I think usa can advance with it

 

reading through all these posts on this thread makes me realize why I often read nasty replies; some of you are so far off the mark with the usmnt that you really ought to stick with fantasy league soccer analysis.

edson buddle for our national team over kirovski? that is absurd. edson is a total basket case. he doesn't even play well for columbus. faster than kirovski, so what, the kid is mostly hurt or ineffective.

ernie stewart may have gotten older, but I'd bet on him over mullan, gaven, or noonan in a wcq any day of the week. if he's on the field, he'll bring his a-game, even if it is less than what it was.

I think someone actually mentioned kyle martino. why? he looked good against cameroon last year and hasn't looked good against anyone since.

cunningham, pk goals are fine for mls, but I don't think they count much on the national stage.

is this a thread for disgruntled crew fans or what? take solace in your team's recent performance. but clamoring for all of them to make the usmnt for a wcq is lame.

 

Bruce has his favorites, no doubt about it. We all remember the Goose debacle. He loves Earnie, I do not think anyone can deny that. Balancing the team with youth and experince in the proper form is quite tough. Bruce is not going to bring in new young players in important games because it can through off Bruce's plans for age/experince balance.

But really what matters is, Bruce took us to an 8th place finish in the WC. I do not question his wisdom or tactics. I might not agree with all his decisions, but I trust him.

 

Good points. Maybe BA's concerns only play through 2006. Or maybe he doesn't share the BS concensus on player talent. IMO, he should be capping more youngsters than he is. But maybe he thinks the olympics will take care of that generation this summer...oh, wait. Darn.

 

Arena wanted to see how Earnie looked with the National Team. The reason why Arena was interested in this is because Stewart is a proven international caliber player and Arena logically wanted to see if he was still servicable.

What do you mean? Martino was picked for the Confederation Cup and then injured. This year, most reports have him struggling for form, though that is hard to say. And Martino was called into a camp earlier this year, I think. BA apparently doesn't think that Martino is ready to help the team against Grenada, and while this surprises me, given Martino's reported dip in form and the fact that Arena sees a lot more of him than most of us do, I can't criticize.

Facts, please. Buddle was hurt up until the start of the MLS season and Noonan was called into winter camps. He did screw around with Noonan, but more at midfield, correct.

Mullan was injured over the winter and had to decline Arena's invite to a camp.

Meet Jason Kreis and Preki. Success in MLS does not make you a successful international.

Well since the Honduras game was about preparation for Grenada, an admittedly long-term project like Gaven was not appropriate for that game which had a very fixed, short-term purpose.

Well, here is a flash, maybe Robben is better. Robben has scored 12 goals last year and 5 this year as a winger, which still dwarfs Johnson's production. If Eddie Johnson produces in MLS, he will get a shot. If he gets this shot and outperforms his competitors, like Robben did, he will move up the depth chart. It's that simple and it applies to Stewart -- at this second, for a pressure-filled match, he is a better option to get the result for the US than Eddie Johnson, Chris Klein or Kyle Martino.

No, what you are saying is that Arena is wrong in determining that Stewart, for example, is better than somebody else who was not capped prior to World Cup 2002. Because, Arena has looked at lots of new guys, he just apparently does not rate these guys as high as you do (which post Word Cup 2002 players should Arena have used instead?)

 

Eddie just needs to continue playing the way he has been. He's right on track. He is too new to the scene for an important international game. The Honduras game was an important game as it really provided a necessary opportunity to get things together for qualifying. Gaven is not needed for the initial rounds of qualifying and, as has been indicated elsewhere, was not and should not have been invited to participate. When the MLS season ends, he will be ready. When the longer and larger US camps start, he probably will get a call. Yes, he's great in the MLS. Now, he needs the opp. to demonstrate it in Nats training camp. He'll do great when the opp. arrives. No prob.

 

FWIW, in an interview with Soccer America earlier this year, Arena said he doesn't think Olympics prepares the players too much for anything (to paraphrase him).