Nashville? Hear me out. I know they're not in the first or even second rank of expansion cities according to Garber's quotes, but I've just come back from a few days in Nashville and was impressed with the city as a whole - not to mention the support Nashville residents and Tennesseans seem to give their sports teams. It wasn't just the Titans paraphenalia that was everywhere you looked - that's a given; there was also quite a lot of Preds stuff around, which is great when you consider how bad they're doing on the ice, and that Nashville won't be mistaken for Montreal. As a fan of urbanism and downtown stadia, I absolutely LOVED that the GEC is set right on Broadway, and that the Titans' place is just over the river, not isolated miles out in some strip-malled boomburb. I don't know if anyone has ever even brought the idea of Nashville up, and I know that no one's going anywhere without a stadium, investor, corporate support and a lot of soccer interest; that said, I'd like to hear from people who know more about the area than me if it would ever be a feasible option for MLS. The way I see it, some of the plusses are: A regional population that seems to support major league sports really well (I read that a large proportion of Titans fans, for example, come from outside Davidson County). It seems to me that when people from this area like something, they support it with their spirit AND their wallet (see NASCAR). I wish I could say the same for where I live. Lots of corporate offices there - could they be brought on board? No real summer ball-sports competition (yes, I know there's NASCAR, and the NHL is practically a summer sport nowadays, but the Preds aren't making it till June anytime soon) A seemingly sophisticated population, yet not so snobbish they'd turn their nose up at MLS because it's not the Premier League. Local and nearby universities. Just a few hours drive from lots of cities, from Atlanta to Memphis to Louisville; the chance to be the regional team of the Mid-south. Identity - this city obviously has one, even if it's more than just 'Music City' nowadays. The fact that it's an entertainment capital of sorts certainly can't hurt. I see a lot of things (corporate center, mid-sized city, not your typical 'soccer city') that say 'Columbus' to me....from an outsider's point of view, I could even see them doing better than Columbus. Now for the unknowns, which someone from the area can answer: Would Tenneseeans actually go for soccer? If so, would Nashville be a better or worse place to go than Memphis? I have no idea what youth soccer figures are for that area, either. Youth soccer numbers as evidence of pro soccer support is a legendary canard, but it might give an idea whether anyone actually cares about the game there. Where could they play? Is there more room alongside the Titan's big stadium across from downtown to build a cozy little 25,000 seater someday? I wouldn't even want to play inside that mammoth thing for a couple years, temporarily, so what about Vanderbilt Stadium? Is there anyone in the city you can actually see stepping up to make this happen?
Don't know much about Nashville, other than a couple of brief visits over the years, but I do know that their old A-League team got very little support.
I'm sure, but that could have a lot to do with the rickety organization of many A-League teams, along with the stigma of being 'minor league', that keeps people from coming out in droves; unfortunately, very few A-League teams draw much of anything, or so it seems - even in decent soccer cities. I understand a lot of people feel that way about St. Louis: it would be a great MLS city, but the people there feel they're better than the A-League. I wonder if there was ever even a minor league hockey team in Nashville before the Predators came along, and yet they seem to be doing all right. It's all about being in the top division in your sport. I'm not wondering if Nashville is an option for 2005, as much as whether you can look at it as a possibility for the 17th or 18th city, around 2010 or so.
Forget about any city for 2010 and beyond, lets worry about MLS in the near future...ie, next few years, not 8 years.
I am farely familar with nashville, and I think it the mls could probably do well there. I live in eastern tennessee. Even here there is titans merchandise every where, and I live 5 hours from nashville. As far as pred merchandise that is hard to find here. The whole state is very supportive of its professional and college teams. Look at UT vols. Knoxville doesnt even have a million people in the city limits yet they pack a 108,000 seat stadium for every game. I dont know the numbers but I do think there is a large youth soccer community in the state especially in the nashville area. I do believe if nashville had a mls team in nashville the state would jump on the soccer band wagon. maybe thats what they could call them the nashville (music city) "band wagons". Ha Ha I am not serious about that but i thought it was catchy. I know I would make the 5 hour trek to go to many home games, but as for my fellow tennessians I cannot garrantee they would show enterest but i believe they would.
the name of this theard needs to be shortened to just nashville or something better than a whole sentence
There was minor league hockey before the Predators... can't remember the name of the team (Knights maybe). I went to a game. Attendance was so low that I got to sit right next to the glass. I hear the Predators are doing well so I think it proves that there's little correlation between major league and minor league attendance. I lived near Nashville for a few years. Soccer won't work. No pigskin, no fights, no wrecks... no chance. Youth soccer's big but probably less so than some other places. The local minor league soccer team's pretty cool though. The owner used to wear this big turban and run around yelling and screaming and enjoying himself trying to get the fans pumped up.
I played in several youth soccer tournaments in the Nashville Area and was very impressed with the level of competition and the venues in which we played. I think Nashville would be a much better option than some of the cities mentioned other places (Tulsa, OK City to name a few). According to the Census Bureau Nashville has a Metro population of 2 million... Much larger than Columbus...
Can you provide a link? The stats I find: http://www.demographia.com/db-2025metro.htm Tell a different story: Nashville, TN MSA 2000 population, 1,231,300 Columbus, OH MSA 2000 population, 1,540,200 They're both about the same sized media markets: http://www.nielsenmedia.com/DMAs.html Nashville's the 30th largest media market, Columbus is 34th.
ok maybe i was wrong, sorry...the numbers i found for the actual city limits is a little under 600,000 so u might be right with the 1.2 million for the metro area
Sorry I was a little off on this too. Knoxville ONLY has 175,000 in the city...I know this isnt nashville but that is pretty impression to have an attendance that is 62% of the population...I know that not all of the fans at the games live in knoxville, but it is still impressive.... Also, I know that this post probably has no relivance to the thread but I was just trying to show that people in tennessee support their teams.
Generalizing about Tennessee fans without mentioning Grizzlies attendance in Memphis could be a problem. Do you find a lot of Grizzlies goodies in Nashville? IMO, thread suffers from the "support of other sports" fallacy. Tennessee sounds very football-oriented to me, though the women's basketball seems competitive. What does that do for soccer? However, does Mr. Sandhu still run around for the Nashville PDL team? Sounds like a good reason for a road trip.
Since there is never mention of an owner, or stadum, it is really just a mater of statistics and well conjecture. I will provide mor precise statistics when i get home from work, but for now...(from memory) Nashville metro population of around 1.2 mill. it is a very rapidly growing city. it is quickly passing up many older well know established northern cities. however young cities like Nashville and Memphis (1.1 mill) are sprawling like crazy. they are not as established as northern cities, nor are they as concentrated. local businesses are not as established and there are generally less old dudes with tons of money lying around to buy a luxury box. Memphis and Nashvile both will in 10-20 years rank much higher as media markets as well as in population. ok work sucks and i have lost my train of thought. I will just throw in some info later. like actual growth rates as well as some comparative city statistics
I totally agree with the point you're making here, Paul; I don't know the area well, having only swung through the city for a few days, and wanted to put the question out there to those who are from there or know it better. My first impression was that it's a real good sports area, without a lot of other summer sports going on to draw off attention on a soccer team. I can think of a few really great 'sports cities' (places like Detroit and Pittsburgh spring to mind), but unfortunately most of them are on the downside, hemorhagging people/industries/money. My impression is that Nashville is one of those southeastern cities with a big upside. As for the Grizzlies: I was working from the assumption that may be some real differences in the cultures of Memphis and Nashville, them being a few hours away from each other and everything. Enlighten me, someone. Besides, who actually goes to NBA games, anyway? No one I know.
First problem, of course, is that the 2 million figure is incorrect. Nashville is less than half the MSA size of 7 MLS cities' MSAs with numbers similar to other small markets MLS is exploring. There are also several youth soccer tournaments in the Tulsa area... and Texas sides are always impressed with the level of competition... which SSS capable of MLS specs did you play in? None... zippo. Nashville has no plans for MLS and has not demontrated public/private support for a team. Nashville's A-League team was arguably the weakest supported team in A-league history (worse than the Atlanta Silverbacks that people use to argue that Atlanta won't support a team). MSA stats and Nielsen TV markets can only go so far to measure potential success/failure: Columbus has an MSA of 1.5 million and TV market ranking 34th (KC's is 33rd). Which cities should MLS expand to? Nashville MSA 1.2 million Winston-Salem 1.2 million Raleigh-Durham1.2 million Jacksonville 1.1 OKC 1.1 Memphis 1.1 Rochester 1.1 Buffalo 1.1 Grand Rapids 1.1 Louisville 1.0 Birmingham .9 Tulsa .8 Omaha .7 Syracuse .7 Boise, Idaho .43 Answer: NONE OF THESE cities unless they have committed ownership, a SSS, and THOUSANDS of season ticket deposits. Columbus had over 10K season ticket commitments in their 1994 bid for a team. THAT put them over the top... Columbus had an ASL team that wasn't supported especially well, kinda like Nashville's A-league team... but where's Nashville's proposal for a team? What makes Nashville "worthy"? Winston-Salem had a huge feasability study done; Seattle sold a stadium proposal to voters based on the ability to host WC matches and an MLS franchise; OKC/Edmond has an owner willing to invest millions in a team and a new stadium; Tulsa was one of the final 18 cities for MLS in 1994 and currently has a mayor strongly in favor of building a new stadium and doing whatever it takes to get a franchise; St. Paul's mayor is trying to find a way to get a stadium/team; Rochester has an owner, a new SSS being built and an A-league season ticket base higher than most MLS teams. Not only does Nashville offer "none of the above," they already have 2 pro teams... in my mind, that puts them far behind other cities that have nothing to offer other than simple demographics... Detroit? Indianapolis? New Orleans? San Diego? Orlando?... they don't show up on any of Garber's lists, either. Why? Because NOBODY has put their $$$ where their mouth is. In another thread, there was a business journal that gave a list of cities that, economically, could "strongly support" a new pro-sports franchise... for MLS, 94 cities (including Boise--listed above) were considered to have the resourses/market... And what post of mine would be complete without decades-old NASL stats: 1978 NASL per game attendance: Memphis 8,708 Tulsa 11,207 1979 Memphis 7,137 Tulsa 16,425 1980 Memphis 9,864 Tulsa 19,787 --Memphis moved to Calgary in '81 Does this infer that Tulsa (or OKC) would be a better market for MLS in 2005 than Memphis (or Nashville)? Of course not. But arguing the opposite would be ludicrous. All these stats tell you is that 2 small markets in the late 70s without any pro-sports teams joined the NASL the same year in '78... Memphis had a much higher population/TV market while many of NASL's top brass questioned why the league would expand to such a small market as Tulsa... It simply proves what your girlfriend's been trying to tell you for weeks: Bigger isn't always better. Have a nice day.
Thanks for the numbers, USRufnex. I wasn't trying to pimp them. I'm from Connecticut, fer chrissakes. Just wanted to see where, if anywhere, they fell in, in the great scheme of things.
Actually, just was responding more to the specific post than anyone who feels Nashville is capable of supporting a team. Even though I enjoy the opportunity of engaging in "in your face" discussion, even I wouldn't resort to accusing you (or anyone, for that matter) of "pimping for Nashville"
Even though I'm generally not the biggest fan of Big Soccer, I guess I've lost my sense of restraint and grudgingly decided that I wouldn't mind hearing how the running Boise gag got started... me being exiled here and all. Not that it shouldn't be running joke... it definitely is!
ok here is a bit more statistical comparison, but since i play with numbers i will add a bit more color to this a little further down "Small Market Cities" pop rank (neilson rank) city-pop +growth rate over 10 years followed by pro teams 29 (37) San Antonio- 1,592 383 +20.2% Spurs (19,673) 30 (42) Norfolk- 1,569,541 +8.8% Mariners A-league (new) 31 (51) Las Vegas- 1,563,282 +83.3% 32 (34) Columbus- 1,540,157 +14.5% Blue Jackets (18,136) Ohio State Buckeyes Crew-MLS (17,511) 33 (27) Charlotte- 1,499,293 29.0% Panther football (62,286) Eagles A-league (1,535) 34 (43) New Orleans- 1,337,726 +4.1% Saints (62,419) Hornets (11,097) 35 (35) Salt lake- 1,333,914 +24.4% Jazz (18,284) 36 (44) Greensboro- 1,251,509 +19.2% 37 (54) Austin- 1,249,763 +47.7% 38 (30) Nashville- 1,231,311 +25.0% Titans (68,433) Predators (14,490) Metros A-League (1,457) RIP 39 (49) Providence- 1,188,613 +4.8% 40 (29) Raleigh- 1,187,941 +38.9% Duke U UNC NC State Carolina Hurricanes (14,785) 41 (28) Hartford- 1,183,110 +2.2% 42 (47) Buffalo- 1,170,111 -1.6% Bills (72,638) Sabers (17,006) 43 (41) Memphis- 1,135,614 +12.7% Grizzlies (15,050) 44 (40) West palm- 1,131,184 +31.0% 45 (53) Jacksonville- 1,100,491 +21.4% Jaguars (60,308) 46 (71) Rochester- 1,098,201 +3.4% Rhinos A-league (11,006) It is clear to me that Nashville is in a range capable of supporting pro soccer. there is already a good amount of draw on sports entertainment dollars, however it is not a "crowded" sports market. with a population growth rate of 25% thats great, but also just above it is Austin TX which had no sports pull and almosty double the growth rate. fun with numbers. in 20 years when MLS should be a 20 team league(whatever that means) nashville will have 1,923,923 residents in its metro area. this is 300,000 people, or roughly the population of Boise Idaho less than Portland Oregon has now. however in 20 years Portland will have 3,613,413 residents. wich just so happens to be one Boise Iowa larger than Phoenix is now. but wait. in 20 years Phoenix will have swollen like a tick to a whopping 6,865,389 souls this is the population of Tulsa Oklahoma larger than Phillidelphia PA. and if you have followed me through all of this you are pretty lame, but you may have noticed that NONE of these cities have MLS teams. it its current growth rate Nashville will take approximately 70 years to reach the size of non MLS City Detroit, and 130 years to match NY Cities Current population, and they could only draw like 20,000 to a game is there anything to learn from all of this? nope, but I wouldnt mind starting a MLS franchise in Oregon. I am willing to leave NY, and Oregon is Beutifull, so what the hell, you can have Nashville.
new invention hey, there's this thing called perception... and cow towns like nashville, oklahoma city, tulsa don't help this. mls needs TV POWER, not full stadiums. we need San Diego, Seattle, Houston, Miami (the city of miami, not key biscayne, or hialeah estates or wherever that last team was. the city of miami. put a team in the friggin orange bowl and they'd draw 20k with all the international double headers they have there) St Louis, NY again, maybe even LA again... contrary to popular belief, mls relies on money from tv sponsorship. no sponsor wants to pay for air that's being broadcast to tulsa, pocatello, idaho, and ted kucynski's cabin. think big here, folks. i'm starting to hear sentiment that mls will earn their key money from attendence. this is a fallacy. the reality is there isn't a whole lot of difference between 7k in KC and 12k in tulsa or nashville.
Re: new invention Originally posted by Defenestration hey, there's this thing called perception... and cow towns like nashville, oklahoma city, tulsa don't help this. And with that attitude, the NBA would never have found Salt Lake City (eewwwww... Mormons!!!) or San Antonio... and since when is MLS so much better off than the NHL that decided Nashville was acceptable for hockey... if that's YOUR perception, maybe you need to get out more often. mls needs TV POWER, not full stadiums. NO! MLS needs to stay in business-- for at least the next 5 years. MLS already has 7 of the top 8 nielsen markets... the BIGGEST DRAIN on MLS's single entity are HUGE losses by the Metrostars and Fire this year (money talks and somethin' else walks, my friend). BTW, MLS is paying for it's exposure, not unlike a Soccer Saturday infomercial-- and it's not real impressive to watch 10,000 fans and 50,000 empty seats... we need San Diego, Seattle, Houston I'm all for that... owner? fanbase? facilities?... ummm... hey, if you comes across tens of millions of $$$ under the sofa cushions, why don't YOU buy a franchise and locate it in a market you deem fit... Until then, Garber/Hunt/MLS are looking for long-term investors in any city that can drum up about 15,000 per game and build them a stadium... Miami (the city of miami, not key biscayne, or hialeah estates or wherever that last team was. the city of miami. Question for ya'-- Where do you think the Miami Dolphins play? Answer for ya'-- Fort Lauderdale, the same friggin' city where the Miami Fusion played... put a team in the friggin orange bowl and they'd draw 20k with all the international double headers they have there) And how much rent would they have to pay? LA is moving out of the Rose Bowl... Dallas is desperate to move out of the Cotton Bowl with NY/NJ losing TONS of $$$ at East Rutherford... and you want to add another older, outdated stadium that's gonna be 75% empty every game??? St Louis, NY again, maybe even LA again... St. Louis? And where would they play? Oh, yeah... permanent NFL lines on astroturf... and another team in NY? the Metros almost had to host playoff games at a MINOR LEAGUE BALLPARK (thank God they didn't make the playoffs)... another team in LA? Oh, gee... finally the Galaxy get their own stadium and you're suggesting yet another potential stadium problem waiting to happen... and how exactly do multiple teams in one market provide these lucretive TV ratings of which you speak? contrary to popular belief, mls relies on money from tv sponsorship. Proof please, post a link if you have the info... currently MLS is a "gate driven" league and CANNOT rely on big bucks from tv sponsorships... if big market sponsorships are the answer, then why are the teams losing the MOST $$$ located in the NYC and Chicago markets while 2 of the teams closest to profitability are in the smaller markets of Columbus and KC (despite KC's poor attendance and huge stadium)? no sponsor wants to pay for air that's being broadcast to tulsa them's fightin words, dumba$$... all sorts of sponsors pay (local, national, etc.) for access to various sized markets all the time... since when did markets in the ONE million range become "cow-towns"??? NBC will be replacing the big market failure XFL with broadcasts of Arena League football... you know, the league that has had teams in Des Moines, Quad Cities, etc... bet they have MORE sponsors than MLS... Besides, you ever hear of college football? They seem to have no problems finding sponsors when teams are playing in Norman or Knoxville or Corvallis or Birmingham or College Station... And NASCAR survived for decades as a circuit using "smaller market" cities primarily in the south... Golf, anyone? NOOOO! Augusta is a disaster! Demographics just aren't good enough... need to play in BIG markets! pocatello, idaho, and ted kucynski's cabin. Actually, I heard ABC recently bumped MLS playoff games to make room for the Discover Card Ice Prancing Championships from Pocatello and the Kotex/Clairol/Claritin Scotty Hamilton & Friends Flagellation Follies LIVE from Ted Kucynski's Cabin. BTW, the Tulsa nielsen market is actually bigger than Rochester's... OKC's is bigger still... think big here, folks. Big... like Philly and Atlanta? Sure let's just plop a team down there... it'd be great for TV ratings... yeah, like we need more ownerless franchises in big markets like Tampa/St.Pete, Dallas/Ft.Worth, or bad/nonexistent ownership at all costs SJ/SF/Oak. or Miami/Ft.L cuz they really boosted those nielsen ratings, didn't they? i'm starting to hear sentiment that mls will earn their key money from attendence. this is a fallacy. Is there some sort of bidding war I don't know about that's going on to wrest control of those Saturday afternoon games from ESPN2??? Once again... don't be shy... Please post a link. the reality is there isn't a whole lot of difference between 7k in KC and 12k in tulsa or nashville. Actually, 5,000 tickets per game is A LOT OF DIFFERENCE... if you don't believe me, ask the "we're bathing in TV money" NFL, who've been getting bigger stadia with MORE and MORE of those "skyboxes"... Meanwhile, back at the MLS ranch, those 5,000 tickets at $20 per ticket comes to $100,000 per game... 14 home dates adds up to $1.4 MILLION bucks per season... and stadium rent that runs at, say, $80,000 per game to rent Giants' Stadium compared to, say, $20,000 per game for different venue in a smaller market... 15 homes dates... that's a debt of $1.2 MILLION to be taken out of the Metrostars butts compared to $300,000 in lease payment for the expansion Nashville Soggie Bottoms... add better concessions and parking deals and, well, you might see how THIS is how MLS will be surviving for the foreseeable future... obligatory NASL reference alert 1979 playoff game... before a weeknight crowd of over 26,000 fans in Tulsa, the Roughnecks shut out the New York Cosmos 3-0... for the next match, the Cosmos draw over 76,000 fans at the Meadowlands-- not bad for a game against a "cow-town," eh??? How's that for "perception"???