There’s definitely a number of guys who can make a jump over the next two years. We just need them to actually do so.
Who are the players not being allowed to compete for spots and who are the better players we should be playing instead? Like many national teams we have a core group made up of who our best players are and they play most the minutes. That’s not why it didn’t work.
So for instance, a new coach coming in could bring back Brooks, he could make Pefok an option to play differently up front. He could start Johnny over Adams. He could bring Tessman into the team. He could give Zendejas and Malik opportunities. He could start Gaga a few games. Trusty, McKenzie…pick your center back. Opportunities need to be given and messages need to be sent.
Yeah but not all those players have earned opportunities. Slonina did not have a great season, McKenzie has never shown he’s better than Ream, Richards, or Robinson, Trusty was not particularly good with the worst team in then EPL, Brooks lost his starting spot with his club as did Pefok (and he scored a total of four goals in the Bundesliga), Tessmann and Zendejas have gotten looks as has Tillman, etc. When guys aren’t showing they are better with their club or that they deserve it with club you’re just making a change for a sake of making a change, not because it’s deserved. I’m not sure what message is being sent by doing that. The top guys on the team are still going to be the top guys whoever the coach. That changes are going to be more on the margins (Jesse Marsch for instance said at one point if it were up to him he’d bring Aaron Long back into the team). Meanwhile the guys showing it with their clubs like Wright and Sargent did actually earn their way back into the group.
That’s true. But honestly I think that’s basically what we need…change for the sake of change. We need fresh eyes on the player pool.
I mean someone like Tessmann is going to get more of a look once the Olympics wrap up as there were a number of guys who probably would have been back of the roster types who are going to the Olympics instead. And a new coach is likely going to have different ideas for some of the guys at the end of the roster. But he’s not likely to rate a McKenzie or Trusty over Richards for instance. I think it’s more likely players like Banks or Neal emerge versus either of those guys playing key roles. We need more depth and more players to get to level of Jedi and Pulisic. But that’s likely going to be more from continued development of the core group and younger guys emerging and pushing through versus competition just for the sake of it. Guys have to take those starting jobs versus being handed opportunities when their club play doesn’t necessarily warrant it.
That’s fair and accurate. I guess my thought is, there are spots up for grabs in the first eleven, centerback, goalkeeper, maybe a winger. They are there to be won in the next 12-18 months. Then I think we need to take a hard look at the midfield. I wonder if Johnny shouldn’t be starting. McKennie, Musah and Adams need to feel Tessman is direct competition. Maybe the new coach would play Gio in midfield. Maybe he would play Johnny and Adams together. Maybe he would play 3-5-2. There are a lot of scenarios that could drive competition for minutes with a new coach. And you’re right about the end of the roster. But also I think suddenly everybody in spots 16-35 will feel that they have the opportunity to perform well and earn a spot in the squad. Sparking down squad competition is one of the ways to find players that emerge and contribute. Sometimes it only takes one player. For that brief period in 2009 when Bob started Charlie Davies, our whole team transformed.
Aaronson’s play in club picked up and saved his Union Berlin team from relegation AFTER he didn’t get called for NL (he finally came as someone hurt). Luna didn’t make Olympic team, he responded with one goal three assists. Cowell didn’t make Olympic team, he responded with one goal one assit in his league play. Players need to be on the edge. For me only Puli deserved a staring spot. All other players need to earn. If Gio sits his ash in the bench in club, then he needs to sit his ash in the bench in national team or even didn’t get call up.
Yes, a new coach will mean a clean slate for everyone. But the talent is the talent. There's a reason John Anthony Brooks became a journeyman, who as far as I can tell is currently without a club. There's a reason Pefok has bounced around recently. He scored 5 goals last season; not 20. There's a reason Gaga Slonina was playing for the worst team in Belgium last season. He wasn't playing at Real Madrid. Trusty was a key player for the worst defense in Premier League history. Some new coach isn't turning Auston Trusty into Nemanja Vidic. Yes, clean slate for everyone. But the pool is kind of the pool. We'll have a couple of the young ones hopefully break out. But ya know, 15 of the 18 players on the Olympic team have full USMNT caps under Berhalter. Some even played in WCQers, etc. like Busio. These guys were already in the pool. And a whole bunch that didn't even make that squad were brought in by Berhalter like Esmir and Luna and those guys. What I'm trying to say is that the pool is the pool. Some new coach isn't going to magically unearth the American equivalent of Zlatan Ibrahimovic. Balogun was benched in France. Ricardo Pepi is a bench player for Holland. Sargent and Wright play in the Championship. That's the pool. No miracles are happening here. You can't turn Brandon Vazquez into Ruud van Nistelrooy. There's a reason Vazquez plays in Mexico and not for Manchester United. What we want is for that new coach to put these players in a better position to succeed than Berhalter did. I don't know if its possible, actually. I don't know if this pool of players is better than the Round of 16 at a World Cup (where Berhalter took them). I don't think this pool is top 8 in the World. Heck, I'm not entirely convinced its top 16. Borderline. Having a couple guys like Pulisic or McKennie playing well in top 5 leagues doesn't separate us from anyone in the top 25.
The people who say they are overrated are the ones who initially build them up to positions that aren't real or supported by any on-the-field play. We have some good players. But so do ALL the other teams out there.
Indeed. There are very few blowouts in a competition like the Euros. On the field, the gap between Slovakia and England was negligible. Or Slovenia, who England drew with. Or Iceland, who England lost to in a pre-tournament warmup. Having a couple of guys playing really well in top 5 leagues..................doesn't separate us from Hungary. The talent pool we have is our talent pool. If people think we have the talent of a top 8 team in the world, then I don't know what to tell you. That doesn't mean we can't beat a top 8 team in the world. But let's be clear, Holland was better than us at every position on the field at the world cup. Left wing with Pulisic was a push maybe. Holland had players like Matthijs de Ligt of Bayern Munich and Xavi Simons of PSG come off the bench against us! Koopmeiners of Atalanta. We brought on Haji Wright and Jordan Morris. I like those players, but that's apples and oranges. I think people get it. We can have the most talent the USMNT program has ever had (which I believe), but still not be competitive with the top 10 in the World. And that's where we're at. I think we all just want a USMNT coach to put is in a better position to win those types of games.
This seems like playing other people to send a message, not because you think they are going to work. Or maybe just throwing shit at the wall? I'll lay off the Brooks one, except to say he hasn't started since March, and if your issue with Ream is having to protect him in open space, Brooks doesn't help. Pefok? Balogun played well. Pepi played well but didn't finish. Pefok was a fine sub for Gladbach but what about his year do you think changed? Johnny played. I don't think starting versus finishing is that big a deal. But maybe? I think the issue with Tyler was coming back from injury, but perhaps that lights a fire. Tessman? We're about to see that there's a big step from Serie B. Zendejas has not been good in the chances he's been given. Malik hasn't in games, either, and he also played. Start Slonina in the Copa America? You can't want Berhalter out because we got grouped AND want to start a 20 year old who hasn't played all that well at club to start. Perhaps Berhalter should have called in a bigger camp to the June friendlies and then sent people home, but we should be throwing shit at the wall in the Copa America nor should we be benching players to make a point unless the other player is doing something deserve PT. It's hard to light a fire if you bench a dude and the replacement does worse. I feel like the fanbase has completely latched onto this idea that everyone is super comfortable and now lazy because it's a very easy, simple solution they think can be fixed solely by a coaching change. There is almost certainly some element there. But if you're trying to light a fire on Weston McKennie's intensiveness, I'm not sure playing Malik Tillman helps you any. You can't turn to Weston and go "Malik works his ass off ..." I think if you are going to go that route, you need to dig back into some of the people who work their ass off -- the Jordan Morris, the Paul Arriolas, the Walker Zimmermans. Pefok might fit; dunno. Aidan Morris. Give me some guys who will kill themselves even if they have less talent. Less finesse dudes. And less egos. Let's not bring in a guy who supposedly only wants to come in if he's starting. If you do this, the other guy has to be doing something that you can point to that the starter isn't doing. If the other player is worse, or has the same issues, it just blow back on the coach as incompetence or personal.
I think the first thing is young players are going to emerge over the next two years and earn spots when they currently aren’t at the level to do so. Goalkeeper is the position where we most need someone to emerge to battle Turner but the problem is no one has really shown they deserve a chance. Centerback would be great if someone emerged next to Richards, though I think it’s telling that no one emerged next to Richards. As for Jonny he did play plenty this summer as Adams was pretty limited up until the last game against Uruguay. He’s going to continue to get opportunities as will Tessmann post Olympics (and he’s had some with the senior team already). But yeah it’s spots 16-23 that are the most up for grabs with a new coach as that’s where you might see some new faces. But I don’t think the problem was there were guys good enough to challenge for the starting XI and Berhalter was just ignoring them.
I mean it’s generally a good thing for there to be competition for spots. But the thing is it has to be earned competition just not trying stuff with guys who haven’t earned it for the sake of it. Like in a perfect world a player like McKennie would be more of a jack of all trades player we bring off the bench to fill a number of different roles. But he’s clearly one of our best XI and there’s not really a player out there capable of beating him out for the time being. In terms of choices this summer the number one thing I would have liked to have seen is what Weah at right back would have looked like. And I think CCV against Panama was a mistake. But those are not decisions that have to do with lack of competition.
Right. But the competition has to be real in the sense that the other player that if the other player gets selected, it can't be seen as an unfair choice or hurting the team. If Auston Trusty sucked all camp, you can't play him over Richards to shake Richards up. The only real way this works is if the player is simply not actively doing something -- like really taking part of the game off -- and the other person does as asked. But otherwise, there's a line that just doesn't deliver the right message. And while we could have experimented more in June, I can't entirely blame the idea of using them as prep for Copa and then I'm not experimenting in Copa. Using the two games to get Turner less rusty was a good choice IMO -- he needed reps, not a "message" by starting Horvath or Slonina. I think certain players might need a shake up, and the team in general needs to look at Colombia and Uruguay and Argentina and ask where the game to game intensity and desire to win is. And I think whoever comes in next needs to scrap the shitty passive defense. That's not this team's identity.
Our players are soft! Gregg didn't make changes to light a fire under their butts so they knew their places were guaranteed. And also, it's unconscionable that in Qatar Gregg didn't make more use of a slightly injured Gio Reyna whom the other players accused of half-assing it in practice. The coach has to put the best guys out there, not be sending messages with playing time. Am I doing the Calvinball thing right?
(And yes I get that the idea is to send messages in friendlies and not WC group games. But first of all, if you think GB was too eager to send a message in Qatar, even if it's a fair criticism, then you are completely misdiagnosing things now. And secondly, he wasn't necessarily lying to say Gio wasn't ready. Obviously there's an implication it was about the injury -- and he had been slightly injured -- but it's completely rational to expect a recovering player to demonstrate that recovery. 50% in practice? Then you're not ready.)
I think people see a bad result or struggle against Panama but then overlook elite teams in Europe who have similar struggles against teams with similar talent gaps.
I do think we have a couple players who could start becoming more competitive for spots based on their performances over time and that would be Johnny Cardoso and Luca. Johnny walked right into a starting role in La Liga and Luca got over 20 starts and around 2,000 minutes in the same league, so not like we're dropping off to scrubs. And, with McKennie looking poor recently, Adams not fully really back from his injuries and Gio never playing, it really would have made sense to give other midfielders more chances. It would not have been crazy to field a couple guys who play week-in, week-out in a top league over guys who have either not played much at all or have looked poor with the US when on the field. Miles not playing even a minute was a bit odd as well, could have gotten another center back minutes and he's been solid for the team in the past and ups the athleticism on the backline considerably. I'm not saying we have a ton of new players to just sit everyone, but we do have a small handful of guys who are succeeding over the last year or so but are still struck behind guys who are not doing much of note to stake such an iron grasp on all the minutes. And Turner has been poor enough in goal that I'd have been fine had Johnson gotten a start. He's never came up as empty for the US as Turner and he's a regular starter even if it is at a lower level. We don't have a deep bench with a bunch of stars, but we do have some options when others aren't performing that could get chances. I think the best thing about the coaching change is we can open things up a bit and not be so locked into a very specific way to play that requires very specific players.
Of course. ....................and it should be noted that Berhalter was extremely aggressive bringing Johnny into the fold. He was first called up to the senior USMNT in November of 2020 before he'd done much of anything for Internacional in Brazil. He'd only made like 14 professional appearances at the time. Whether we had a new coach or Berhalter, Johnny was going to play an increased role in the group. Particularly due to the fragility of Adams. So what is this about a new coach giving more of a chance to Johnny than Berhalter? I don't get it. Do people think Gregg wasn't doing that? Really, I don't get it.
I think there's choices, for sure. Not sure I agree with all of the above -- starting Sean Johnson in a must win is pretty counter to the idea of taking Copa America seriously and any coach would be roasted for it. But some of them are real. That said... I think it's a little crazy to play a player to shake something up in a tournament like Copa America. That's not the time to start someone as an experiment or to light a fire. The June friendlies could have had more of this, but we should be playing the players who give us the best shot to win in Copa. And needed to once Weah got a red. I also think that you can only light a fire if the person challenging actually makes sense. I also think we have to talk about what kind of complacency we are talking about. On field intensity and work rate? Focus on executing specific parts of the gameplan? Working on parts of your game away from the team to be an overall better player? Lastly, there are caveats and contending priorities here. Johnny Soccer has done well in La Liga and he's a good defender in a small space. He fits a passive defense well but I don't think you can play him as a true solo 6 and expect to succeed. His range is not that high. Put him in a well structured defense with smaller ground to cover and he's great. So you can start him over Adams, but in order for it to work well, I think you need to change the tactical plan. That has downstream consequences. This is not impossible to do, but if you wanted to play more aggressive, or you wanted to have Reyna play more forward ... this makes it harder. A different point on de la Torre. Yes, he played, but he also tended to play a decent amount of winger and played outside. He didn't get a ton of minutes in the middle. I think if you want to stick him in the middle and expect him to physical contend in a CONMEBOL tourney, that's a mistake. Play him as a LM in 442? Okay, that makes sense. I'm not trying to say you couldn't do or try things. But I think it's harder than it seems for a coach who just got fired in large part because of a single game failure*. Berhalter got a lot of criticism for the stepping stone comment, but then there's a lot of criticism that he's not experimenting more or even benching guys to send a message. Of course, in theoreticals, you can do both. In reality, we saw Malik Tillman struggle with T&T's physicality -- McKennie had a shitty tournament but what happens to Malik against Panama and Uruguay? I think there's two real types of complacency here. I think the team gets its on field fire back through identity. Pressure defense. Run and attack. If we run out of gas, that's a sign to get in better shape or to sub. I do think if we're playing passive so we don't have to sub, that's a huge error. The other one is more about individual challenges off the field. Each of these guys should have a development plan -- and I know we do talk to clubs and sort of align on individual improvement goals. The national team coach plays a tertiary at best role here -- the player, the club staff, then them. But I don't see as much individual skill improvement as I'd expect these days. Look at Christian -- his finishing / distance shooting is MUCH better. His corners are better. What other player do we see adding to their game. The comparison to other sports and all time greats may be unfair, but Jordan would add shit to his game yearly -- one year he became an elite defender, the next year he extended his outside shooting range, then he added a post up game, etc. In contrast, I love Jedi, and I know he had the stats this year in the EPL, but can you tell me in the last five years that his crossing has gotten ANY better? Does he work on that more and more smartly if there's a real challenger at LB? Maybe, but I also think the national team is always secondary to club for these guys. There aren't going to be as many Donovans anymore. *Yes, I actually agree with a longer trend issue, but if we Panama, do you think he's fired?
I see two things here, first I think we seem to act like it's not taking chances to play guys who are never on the field anywhere else. It was taking a chance to play Adams limited minutes and hope for the best, that he was able to step up, that he did not get hurt again. It was taking a chance to ply Gio after he hasn't played in ages and hope he can be effective for 90. It's taking a chance that a guy who is not performing will suddenly turn it on. Making changes is only taking a chance if you are happy with what you're getting. And also, probably one of my biggest issues with Berhalter has been his reliance on ultra-specific player types for a narrow gameplan and part of that is it limits the ability to make changes and play different guys. We have a lot more depth if you don't need specifically a high energy, run all day cover a ton of ground guy to replace Adams for example. We have a lot of decent quality midfielders, but only one of a very specific type. The pre-Copa friendlies would have been perfect opportunities to try out new players in a lower stakes game where they can still be tested against top competition but when you're locked into a one way is the only way setup, you do get stuck with what you've got. Berhalter had several years to try other ways to play and we never did, probably Berhalter's greatest mistake in my estimation and it does limit the player pool sharply.