Anyone know fencing??

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Iforgotwhat8wasfor, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. Iforgotwhat8wasfor

    Jun 28, 2007
    Hope this isn't too far out of bounds...

    From what I can tell about the Olympic epee controvery between A-Lam and Heidemann, it's the typical ignorance/misrepresentation of how officiating actually works, but I have been unable to find anyone that actually knows how the timers work, etc. Anyone know? :)
     
  2. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Dont know a lot, but i know that if you leave the fencing platform you are accepting the results.

    So the fencer had to sit there in tears while her coach went through the appeals process (70 minutes!) Apparently they thought the clock wasn't started properly and time should have run out. When it does, the helmet won't light up.


    some video seems to support this. you can see in a video that the time never changes from when the referee tells them to fence. It sure looks like more than a second to me.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/ktlincoln/a...s-to-leave-the-floor-after?sub=1697515_473748

    stupid rule.
     
  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    From what I can tell they hit each other at the same time and both put their arms up and yell offside!...oh wait wrong sport.
     
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  4. Iforgotwhat8wasfor

    Jun 28, 2007
    Must be hockey. If it were soccer they would both grab their faces and start rolling around on the ground...

    Actually Cliveworshipper, I'm not certain of any of that. Could she have gotten permission to leave the piste and just chose not to?

    The bout starts on the ref's word and stops on the electronic touch. Those last double touches were very fast. If the clock is manually started and electronically stopped there could easily be three attacks in a second.

    I think that the ref called a foul on A-lam and extended time, and I think that the minimum time for an extension is one second. Heidemann clearly scored within one second. So I think the whole thing is completely kosher and not that uncommon.

    Nobody mentions that A-lam did not earn priority - the win if Heidemann did not touch first - but rather was awarded it on the basis of a coin flip... (It's like KFTM before extra time, but with a coin :) )
     
  5. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    I'm pretty sure if she left she had no recourse. It is, I suppose, possible that the officials could have said she could leave, but that is risky. This is one of those holdover rules from decades ago. It was so when I was in HS ( my school had it)

    And it looks like more that a second from the signal to the touch to me. Remember, the time on the clock is the START of each second. I suppose you could count frames, but I'm not sure of the FPS on the video.

    I'll be interested to see if the IOS says anything about a review before the final. remember figure skating?

    Probably not, since she then fenced for the bronze ( and lost) you would think they would have given her time to compose herself, though.
     
  6. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 25, 2011
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    I am confused here. does the timer start when the referee initiates them to fence? There is no way that all three acts were completed in one second. I know nothing about fencing so pardon my utter ignorance.
     
  7. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    The first article I read about this implied that she stayed on the piste in an act of defiance. Reading further, I did understand that she was required to stay there in order to appeal the decision. Everyone seems to be getting upset about this, but I have no doubt that the officials acted in accordance with fencing rules. Obviously, I have no prior knowledge of the details of fencing rules, but my understanding is that time expired on the third double hit in that last second, but that the Korean fencer committed some sort of technical infraction that required a second to be put back on the clock. When play resumed, the Italian fencer scored a point in about nine-tenths of a second, prior to the expiration of time.

    Nevertheless, when Olympics officials came out to tell the Korean fencer that her appeal had been denied and ordered her to leave the piste, she still refused. To me, this is an arrogant and immature act. They had to come back out a minute later and escort her off the piste. I believe they also sanctioned her with a yellow-card warning at this time. For an event intended to bring out the best in sportsmanship, the actions of this Korean fencer and her coach sure failed as I see it.

    [​IMG]

    This is a grown woman crying over a disagreement over a decision. Absolutely pitiful IMO.
     
  8. Deleted Account

    Dec 31, 2004

    Let me see if I understand your position:

    "I have no idea how fencing works, but I'm going to blindly assume that the officials handled this correctly, despite clear video evidence to the contrary. Also, I'm going to accept some nebulous, unspecified 'technical violation' as further justification that the right decision was made, even though it has no bearing on the fact that more than 1.5 seconds passed between the resumption of the bout (with 0:01 on the clock) and the final hit.


    In conclusion, how dare this woman act upset. Clearly, when one has logged innumerable hours and forfeited a normal childhood and young adult life in an effort to achieve her dream, and that dream is subsequently crushed in front of the entire world, possibly in an extremely unjust manner, she should just suck it up and accept it with a stiff upper lip."

    Come on, man.
     
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  9. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    I trust the judgment of the officials, who are trained professionals and understand the rules far better than you, me, and the participants and coaches. By participating in this event, she accepts their judgment as well, even if it goes against her. End of story.
     
  10. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    this is a soccer forum. Do you trust Blatter, Warner, Havelange, Texeira, Grondona, etc. etc?

    They are the ultimate arbiters in our sport, or at least the ones not convicted are. What do you know about the folks who run Fencing at the Olympics?
     
  11. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    I don't. But unless I see blatant, proven misconduct by officials, I accept their judgment bona fide, and so should the participants.
     
  12. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    I'm not so trusting. Just in my lifetime I have witnessed an officiating scandal in 1972 in basketball, in 1988 in Boxing, in 1988 in skating, and read about scandals in track and field and cycling in the 1936 games.


    But what you have to remember about this sport, is that there was already an officiating scandal in the Athens olympics, for which a Hungarian official, Josef Hidasi, was subsequently suspended from the sport for two years for officiating "errors" in those games.
    The fairness of the sport was compromised once before.

    Any decision that is quantifiable should stand the test. And there is video evidence that looks very fishy. There may in fact be a reasonable excuse for their decision, but it should withstand scrutiny. The IOS should at least review the evidence.

    That is how you determine "proven, blatant, misconduct"
     
  13. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    Fine, review it. I'm not saying they shouldn't. I'm just saying those involved should act professionally.
     
  14. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    And part of being professional is not ceding a decision needlessly. That appears to be what they did.

    I believe Hidasi's decisions stood because of the rule that kept this contestant on the piste.
     
  15. Iforgotwhat8wasfor

    Jun 28, 2007
    Also, I'm going to accept some nebulous, unspecified 'technical violation' as further justification that the right decision was made, even though it has no bearing on the fact that more than 1.5 seconds passed between the resumption of the bout (with 0:01 on the clock) and the final hit.






    I just don't understand this. I count from the "Fence" to the touch and get "one thou-" I'm counting from the one second reset to the touch, of course. In the larger picture, this is why I thought the situation is relevant to this group. How many soccer fans are unwilling to accept some nebulous, unspecified foul call by the CR against their team?-) You don't know fencing, but you are ready to critique fencing officiating, h'oh boy...
     
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  16. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    That's not the part that bothers me. It's their right to appeal and if part of the appeal process is the requirement that she remain on the piste, then so be it. It's the fact that once the appeal was denied she still refused to leave the piste. That's arrogant and disrespectful toward the judges.
     
  17. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Moderator

    May 9, 2011
    nj
    Bingo.
     
  18. asoc

    asoc Member+

    Sep 28, 2007
    Tacoma
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/31/oly-fenc-fewiep-rounds-day4-protest-idUSL6E8IVQA720120731
     
  19. Katreus

    Katreus Member

    Jul 3, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Reading the judo thread (on another forum), my understanding is that:

    1. Every time there was a double hit, they reset the clock to 1 second (the FULL 1 second) because the clock does not accept milliseconds. Almost certainly, 4 attacks took more than 1 second.

    2. The referee is in charge of time keeping and if they say a second didn't pass, it didn't pass. (This is somewhat problematic, of course. I don't believe the FIE ever imagined timekeeping would come up or expect their referees to be able to do this. Hence, the apology.) The officials who can actually view the video and count the seconds are not allowed to overturn it. Rules say referee in charge of time. Thus, they don't review the video at all because the referee had decided that a second didn't pass. Therefore, appeal failed.
     
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  20. nicklaino

    nicklaino Member+

    Feb 14, 2012
    Brooklyn, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Doesn't 't she know there is no crying in fencing
     
  21. Deleted Account

    Dec 31, 2004
    The expectation that she behave this way goes against every single fiber of human nature. Just sayin'.
     
  22. Deleted Account

    Dec 31, 2004

    I've read enough explanations from people who do know fencing, and enough of them thought this was fishy. Also, the video clearly shows that one second plus seventeen frames (out of thirty frames per second) elapse between the restart and the touch.

    Aaaannnnnnd, it looks like the international federation has acknowledged there was a screw-up, so there's that, too.

    So no, I don't know a thing about fencing, but I know enough to look to people who do for clarification, rather than just making blind assumptions.
     
  23. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 25, 2011
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Are you serious la Rikardo? You just waded into the muck of the fallacy of making blind assumptions about officiating in a sport you have zero knowledge of and no understanding of the spirit of fencing. It is becoming more apparent that the officiating of this match wasn't up to snuff because of certain nebulous and overly technical violations played a huge role in determining the outcome. As for the actual protest, the fencer exhibited good sportsmanship according the fencing community. For you to say that she was immature and arrogant shows complete ignorance on your part. That is why I refrain from making blind criticisms of a sport I know nothing about and you should too.
     
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  24. NC Soccer United

    NC Soccer United BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jan 25, 2011
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    What a load of crap. So why did Koman Coulibaly get his ass send home? What about 1972 basketball? So those guys should just accept blatant officiating misconduct because you trust the judgment of the Hungarian officials? So Duke lacrosse players should accept Mike Nifong's prosecutorial misconduct by taking the plea bargain because you trust the judgment of the prosecutor? That is why I have seen protests work in soccer tourneys because of egregious ref errors. So for you to suggest we mere mortals with minuscule knowledge should just shut up and accept it is being so presumptuous and arrogant. This is why we are constantly drilled in avoiding errors that grossly determines the outcome of the game with trifling decisions.
     
  25. oldreferee

    oldreferee Member

    May 16, 2011
    Tampa
    Well, since y'all are talking 'bout fencing on bigsoccer, I don't even feel the need to apologize by expanding the conversation to beach volleyball. :p

    I was watching the US men play somebody (Sorry, I forget. I do remember one guy had a bum knee, if that helps). Second last point of the match, the US player does something illegal (double touch?) according to replay and the announcers (I have no idea, I take them at their word). The refs don't call it, and the US wins a very close match on the next point.

    The interesting part, for me, is that one of the losers freaks. He goes all Tommy LaSorda on the ref. The only thing I thought I knew about volleyball was that this sort of behavior was NOT allowed in their culture. And the commentator (a very volleyball-ish person as far as I can tell) says: "I don't blame him for going after the ref".

    Any volleyballers out there? Is this really a departure from the volleyball (refereeing) culture? Or just a tempest in a teapot, exaggerated to inflate the TV viewership?
     

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