Re: Any doubts that HendrixforPope loves sucking?... Besides Flamengo, how big is Corinthians torcida today? In the past they had a lot of dedicated fans, but they got frustrated by the timao being owned by dualib (?) I remember the rebellion when they lost a game in Sao Paulo (?) about 2 years ago, and then they got rid of Tevez and Mascherano...
Blind Pilot didn't have any statistical backing to his claim that "over 50% [of Egypt] love Al-Ahly". It could have been more hyperbole than reality (that sounds funny ). KingKong's statistics about how many Flamengo supporters there are may not have been 100% accurate (I'm not saying they were or weren't), but at least he had sound statistical backing.
My claim is not the legitimacy of the data presented about Al Ahly, it's about the argument put forth ... Flamengo having 32 million of fans is also pure fallacy...pure extrapolation that assumes every single Brazilian is a fan of football...men/women/new born children etc ... As long as the other studies in other countries have been conducted the same way, I guess it only provides a means for comparison. But IMO it's just a study for the curious ... and doesn't really signify much. Flamengo is a an important club based on its past accomplishments, players and irregardless of the number of its fans.
'Paulistas' will never accept that the whole Brazil is fan of a team from a city which is their mortal rival. Maybe some BS members don't know, but in general the 'paulistas' have a historical inferiority complex with Rio de Janeiro for never having been the capital of Brazil. Although economically is the locomotive of Brazil. So it's good to let them know that your opinion (yes, just an 'opinion', because you don't back it with any data) is obviously biased & suspicious... Besides being the capital for almost 200 years, Rio has wonderful natural attractions and São Paulo is traditionally no more than a hodgepodge of gray buildings. In spite (and that's where resides its positive points) of displaying a rich cultural and night life (the best museums, theaters, night clubs and restaurants of Brazil by far). But Rio has the forests, the mountains, the carnival, the beaches - and with that its refined football is more visible to the visitor (from the packed tribunes of Maracanã Stadium you can even see the green mass of trees of Tijuca Forest on top of the Sumaré Range). And even Christ the Redeemer watches the games from the top of Corcovado mount – at night lit among the clouds. In São Paulo, you can only presence non-pro outstanding football being played in the outskirt ‘varzeas’ and/or in more reserved futsal (and/or 'futebol-soçaite') clubs. It's enough though for the tourist to be lodged in a front apartment of a Copacabana hotel in Rio to watch amazing amateur beach football (or footvolley) games being played by men & women from morning to afternoon (and even at night) in its sands. Rio breathes football in each corner, what makes it the most exciting city of Brazil to the lovers of football. Who visits it knows that it’s true. And that’s why the final of the 2014 Cup has to be in Maracanã Stadium – now the official ‘house’ of Flamengo. Due to its deserved national prestige, Rio’s big teams since the 30's/40's had its games broadcasted to the remotest corners of the country (what didn't happen in such scale to São Paulo big teams), forming formidable & faithful (‘granpa-to-father-to-son’) generations of supporters in the whole Brz territory. And soon Flamengo, which was already the passion of Rio in the 30's - with that all that 'marketing' - became an All-Brazilian passion. Almost a religion. And the evidently afro black-and-red of its jersey only reinforces that mystics. If you go to any state capital of Brazil to a Flamengo's game against the home team, in very few instances the opponent's mass of rooters will surpass the scarlet-and-black local legions. Even in São Paulo City. The only team of the capital of São Paulo that takes more rooters to Morumbi Stadium than Flamengo - and, still by not such a big margin - is Corinthians (if Flamengo is in a good spell of course). Poor argument, bro… I’d say that that percentage of declared fans of football is higher in Brazil than in any other country of the world, though. But if you consider the stats put forth, you're not entitled to the conclusion you arrived to. If Flamengo has 17%, Corinthians 12% and São Paulo 8%, and after that percentages start dropping strongly that will give you at the most 60 to 70% of the Brz population interested in football. You still have 30 to 35 % of the population (60/70 million) non involved. Agreed with almost everything, with the exception of those 7 last words … ______________________________________________________________ PS: That doesn’t mean I put in 2nd level the football of São Paulo. Absolutely. For me historically Rio and São Paulo are ‘pau-a-pau’. Man, too bad you couldn’t see the Palmeiras I saw playing in the late 50’s/early 60’s. I almost feel like crying of joy for having seen Djalma Santos & Chinesinho dispatch Pelé’s Santos (and I was a Santos’ fan!) in possibly the most spectacular football game ever I saw on TV in my life: it was the final of the SP Chpmshp (don’t remember exactly the year). TV Tupi broadcasted the SP league live in those years, and I was not stupid to miss one of the sensational games. I saw he game in which Pelé scored 9 (8?) goals in an official SP league game, man (world record of goals in a game, I guess)!... I probably saw Pelé’s ‘Rua Javari goal’… And don’t remember!... Simply because a huge amount of also spectacular Pelé’s goals that we saw on TV were not registered in footage … _____________________________________________________________ As far as the 'torcida do Flamengo', I'll repeat with you, bro: "Isso aí nao é chapéu, isso é uma chapelaria" ...
Damn ... from my little post, we have to get into Rio x SP argument. All I have to say is that Cariocas are full of themselves Anyways ... Rio and SP haven't been "pau a pau" since 1990. Rio's football teams have declined a bit. Since then Paulista teams have won 11 Brasileiros against 4 from Rio. I don't doubt Flamengo has the most fans. Definitely isn't 32 million. But honestly, it doesn't really bother me (and I don't even care) if Flamengo has fans in Piaui or Maranhao.
If we aren't, who will be for us? 'A propaganda é a alma do negócio' ... That's true: it's more 'Grê' a 'Pau' now than 'pau' a 'pau', but that's just a cyclic phenomenon, as it's always been, until new Zicos show up... You'd better... Prejudice towards poorer states show why you're so unpopular outside the Paulicéia (by the way, Piauí is twice as big, Maranhão thrice & both have four times better girls than São Paulo) ... You don't know how great is to go there and still feel 'at home' with those babes. PS: I know, what bothers you is when Flamengo divides the Morumbi with Palmeiras or easily topples Portuguesa fans in Canindé... Do you see how 'paulistas' don't conform to the harsh reality of life? (a reality proved by DataFolha, BTW a highly trustable São Paulo State polling entity - more unsuspicious is impossible)... But I uderstand you: 32 million IS definitely disturbing... A NATION by itself. ______________________________________________________ Below interesting data about attendance numbers in all Brazilian Championships (fr. 1971 to 2007): Maiores públicos (Biggest crowds) Jogos com público divulgado Flamengo 3 X 0 Santos: 155.523 (Maracanã, 29/05/83) Flamengo 3 X 2 Atlético Mineiro: 154. 335 (Maracanã, 01/06/80) Fluminense 1 X 1 Corinthians: 146.043 (Maracanã, 05/12/76) Flamengo 1 X 1 Grêmio: 138.107 (Maracanã, 18/04/82) Botafogo 3 X 1 Flamengo: 135.487 (Maracanã, 19/04/81) Fluminense 0 X 0 Vasco da Gama: 128.781 (Maracanã, 27/05/84) Botafogo 2 X 2 Flamengo: 122.001 (Maracanã, 19/07/92) Flamengo 1 X 1 Vasco da Gama: 121.353 (Maracanã, 08/05/83) Flamengo 2 X 1 Guarani: 120.441 (Maracanã, 11/04/82) Vasco da Gama 2 X 2 Internacional: 118.777 (Maracanã, 28/07/74) Fluminense 0 X 0 Corinthians: 118.370 (Maracanã, 20/05/84) Flamengo 1 X 0 Atlético Mineiro: 118.162 (Maracanã, 29/11/87) Corinthians 4 X 1 Flamengo: 115.002 (Morumbi, 06/05/84) Santos 2 X 1 Flamengo: 114.481 (Morumbi, 12/05/83) Atlético Mineiro 0 X 0 Santos: 113.479 (Mineirão, 15/05/83) Corinthians 2 X 1 Internacional: 113.286 (Morumbi, 21/11/76) Vasco da Gama 2 X 1 Cruzeiro: 112.993 (Maracanã, 01/08/74) Flamengo 1 X 4 Palmeiras: 112.047 (Maracanã, 09/12/79) Vasco da Gama 1 X 2 Flamengo: 111.260 (Maracanã, 05/05/83) Santos 3 X 2 Flamengo: 111.111 (Morumbi, 27/02/83) Fonte: Revista Placar - Guia do Brasileirão 2008 Melhores médias anuais (Best annual average) Série A; partidas em casa (Serie A; home games) 1971: Desconhecido. 1972: Corinthians 40.719 1973: Flamengo 33.660 1974: Vasco da Gama 36.619 1975: Internacional 46.491 1976: Corinthians 47.729 1977: Atlético Mineiro 55.664 1978: Palmeiras 31.359 1979: Internacional 46.491 1980: Flamengo 66.507 1981: Flamengo 43.614 1982: Flamengo 62.436 1983: Flamengo 59.332 1984: Flamengo 38.543 1985: Bahia 41.497 1986: Bahia 46.291 1987: Flamengo 47.610 1988: Bahia 35.537 1989: Flamengo 21.300 1990: Atlético Mineiro 26.748 1991: Atlético Mineiro 26.763 1992: Flamengo 42.922 1993: Corinthians 37.330 1994: Atlético Mineiro 22.673 1995: Atlético Mineiro 21.072 1996: Atlético Mineiro 25.449 1997: Atlético Mineiro 23.342 1998: Cruzeiro 28.384 1999: Atlético Mineiro 42.322 2000: Fluminense 20.219 2001: Atlético Mineiro 30.679 2002: Fluminense 25.666 2003: Cruzeiro 26.366 2004: Corinthians 13.547 2005: Corinthians 27.330 2006: Grêmio 25.630 2007: Flamengo 39.221 Classificação 1. Flamengo: 102. Atlético Mineiro: 93. Corinthians: 54. Bahia: 35. Cruzeiro, Fluminense, Internacional: 26. Grêmio, Palmeiras e Vasco da Gama: 1 The 1980 final between Atlético-MG e Flamengo, disputed in two games, was the one with more specators: 269.497 pagantes: 13/02/80 115.142 Atlético x Flamengo, in Mineirão (Belo Horizonte); 01/06/80 154.355 Flamengo x Atlético, in Maracanã (Rio de Janeiro). Source: Magazine Placar - Guia do Brasileirão 2008 Média geral por equipe (Best averages by team) Série A; até 2007; jogos com mando de campo (Serie A; until 2007; home games) Flamengo: 26.549 Bahia*: 24.983 (até 2003) Atlético Mineiro: 24.548 Corinthians: 21.999 Cruzeiro: 19.578 Palmeiras: 18.261 Internacional: 18.168 Vasco da Gama: 17.467 São Paulo: 16.819 Grêmio: 16.220 Fluminense: 15.570 Santa Cruz: 15.235 Fortaleza*: 14.635 (até 2005) Paysandu*: 14.610 (até 2004) Sport: 14.506 16. Ceará*: 13.955 17. Santos: 13.929 18. Goiás: 13.685 19. Remo*: 13.578 20. Botafogo: 13.352 21. Coritiba*: 12.750 (até 2004) 22. Vitória*: 12.514 23. Náutico: 10.921 24. Atlético Paranaense: 10.663 25. Figueirense: 9.878 26. Guarani*: 8.769 (até 2003) 27. Ponte Preta*: 7.953 (até 2005) 28. Paraná: 7.603 29. Criciúma*: 6.266 (até 2003) 30. Portuguesa: 6.256 31. Juventude: 5.386 32. São Caetano*: 4.111 (até 2005) Maiores médias de público por clubes (Biggest crowds averages by clubs) Série A; até 2007; jogos com mando de campo (Serie A; until 2007; home games) Flamengo: 66.507 (1980) Atlético Mineiro: 55.664 (1977) Santos: 49.306 (1983) Corinthians: 47.729 (1976) Internacional: 46.971 (1979) Bahia: 46.291 (1986) Vasco da Gama: 46.281 (1983) Fluminense: 43.541 (1976) Palmeiras: 42.417 (1983) São Paulo: 41.179 (1981) Cruzeiro: 37.035 (1983) Grêmio: 36.648 (1981) Sport: 35.580 (1998) Botafogo: 34.720 (1981) [*]Náutico: 30.918 (1983) [*]Goiás: 28.158 (1983) [*]Vitória: 27.022 (1993) [*]Atlético Paranaense: 23.801 (1983) [*]Fortaleza: 23.731 (2005) [*]Coritiba: 21.754 (1980) [*]Figueirense: 16.696 (1975) [*]Portuguesa-SP: 13.705 (1984) Source: Magazine Placar Guía do Brasileirão 2008 http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campeonato_Brasileiro_de_Futebol#Campe.C3.B5es Paulistas have been winning more trophies, it's true, but in all Brazil (not only in Maranhão or Piauí...) looks like people prefer to see Flamengo play .
Re: Any doubts that HendrixforPope loves sucking?... Corinthians is the 2nd 'torcida' of Brazil, but only in absolute SP City numbers. Within their own boundaries (a pure demographic inflation and not fruit of an affectionate attachment). They've 'swollen' - not...grew Outside São Paulo State, Fluminense, Vasco, Botafogo contingents of fans are way bigger... The popularity of the Rio's clubs is evident in the local stadiums of all regions of Brazil...
Why are you boasting so much about having these fans, when only one in a thousand of them went to a game on average last year? It's not even as if the ground was full and they couldn't get in. Flamengo's highest ever average crowd for a season, is far smaller than some clubs manage every year. So why all the boastng?
Re: Any doubts that HendrixforPope loves sucking?... I get the feeling that some may have been born with 11
“Football is not really about winning, or goals, or saves or supporters- it’s about glory" - Blanchflower/Comme ... The desire of going to that big game of your team is the same in England or Brazil. Unfortunately we have here something you don't have in England - i.e., low wages. Maybe you don't have the experience of arriving to the end of the month & concluding that is + important to pay the supermarket and the light bill than to go to your team game. 'Globalism' and the 'unidimensional-man' concept forgot to take that in account: i.e. parity of wages among Old and New World workers. If we consider that, you'll have to admit that Brazilian cyphers - specially Flamengo's, whose rooters, although predominating in all classes, belong mostly to the less favoured ones - are stratospheric ... Thanks for letting me remember you of that ... ______________________________________________________________________ PS: MOREOVER THIS THREAD - AS IT'S ALREADY BEEN POINTED BEFORE - IS NOT ABOUT 'PUBLIC AVERAGES' BUT ABSOLUTE NUMBER OF ROOTERS FOR ONE SINGLE CLUB. AND IN THAT ASPECT FLAMENGO'S NUMBERS HOLD.
Re: Any doubts that HendrixforPope loves sucking?... The way Pelé, R. Gaucho or Robinho 'grab' the ball with the feet I'd say we are born with an extra toe ... (A little more 'boasting' to Comme)...
Re: Any doubts that HendrixforPope loves sucking?... Canadians have a maple leaf instead of hands & feet. That's why they prefer snow trekking than playing football LOL ... What question? You ask several in your posts... Sorry, Mine are anything but misleading. They can at the most be disturbing. All that would be perfectly valid as 'good reasoning' if I had not definitely proved (beyond the reach of any other competitor) that Flamengo's 'sedan' takes not 'five' but 15 people ... PS: Besides your Ford Galaxy is out-of-line ... http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1139/1964fordgalaxie500xlptc4.jpg
So you are trying to tell me that in 2003, out of 40 million supporters, there were less than 14,000 who could actually afford to go to the games? Out of interest how much is a typical ticket in the Maracana to stand and watch Flamengo?
Re: Any doubts?... I know, Pope!... You're of the type that may lose a friend, but not the joke. Won't blame you: I do that, too... Pardon for the 'rant'!... PS: Suck your thumb, never the middle finger! ...
Hey, You keep insisting with your averages... And I already told you we are talking about ABSOLUTE officially declared number of Flamengo rooters... Registered by the most trustworthy polls of our country... Which is saying a lot: Brazil is one of the most respected countries of the world as far as statistical research techniques. Our system of voting and elections previews are recognizedly superior to US's ... In a Flamengo game you always stand, be you in the 'geral' (cheapest place, which doesn't exist anymore) or in the the Presidential seat ... Hard to tell in view of the monetary conversions, but the typical soccer ticket is cheap enough for Brittish standards and often too expensive for Brazilian poorer masses' ...
The city of Rio "only" has around 7 milion people (13 million if you count the surrounding areas). Let's say Flamengo has 30% of those fans. That's at most around 4 million fans who could actually attend the games. The other "28 Million" (if you believe in the 32 Million total which is ludicrous) fans are wannabe Cariocas from other other states. A typical ticket today is (i believe) 14 Reais...less than $8. Very cheap by US/Europe standards. Money is not the only problem for the low attendance. Here are some more: - Crowd violence (keeps families and the higher class fans from the field) - The best talents are always leaving the country - In this case ... it's Rio, you have to compete with the beach
What's the point in having these "supporters" though? If they can't even afford a fiver to actually go to the game then there's no point in having them. But surely there are some relatively affluent people in Brazil (more than 13,000 of them)? I mean seriously how can a club claim to be the best supported club in the world, and then get that number of supporters?
Re: Any doubts that HendrixforPope loves sucking?... This is your idea of a response?? Weak very weak once again.
You and your ludicrous Math 101. And an even worse Sociology 100 ... As it was shown above, the 'roots' of popular football teams can extend themselves within the same country far away from their original cities. In megalopolis of the size and prestige of São Paulo, for instance, any person a little more informed knows that its cultural influence encompasses many of the politically and economically lesser influent surrounding states' cities. In the case of RJ, that's not different: in Juiz de Fora, a big industrial city of the bordering State of Minas Gerais (what to say about the hundreds of other smaller MG bordering cities), people speak Portuguese with carioca accent and root for the teams of Rio (in their great majority for Famengo of course). Same thing with Niterói, Campos, Macaé, Angra, Barra Mansa, Resende, Petrópolis (the other big cities of RJ State) and Vitória (capital of the bordering state of Espírito Santo). And it's absolutely valid to say that that influence often stretches up to the very borders of the country. A Palmeiras rooter in the Northern amazonic state of Amapá is as much a Palmeiras rooter as a fanatic porco from the Móca in the heart of São Paulo City. Sometimes (be him paulista or not) even more 'fanatic', precisely due to the distance. I'm absolutely sure that you'll find all over England throngs of MU, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpooll, Arsenal hardcore rooters that will get very angry if you call them 'wannabe fans'... Just because they weren't born in those clubs' towns it doesn't mean they are 'foreigners', don't know how to dance samba, how to sing the club's anthem or speak the same language... Your 'wannabes', Celito, simply don't exist. A 'wannabe' is a nobody: it's the guy who 'roots for who's winning'... That's not a fan... That's the cheapest of the cheapest (when the clubs lower the prices in order to promote them): and still too much for the Brz poor masses standards. Be sure that many of those who attend to those games will 'forget' to take (or will have 'lost' the money to buy) the sacred 'rice & beans' to their family's table at night... Disagree: - Violence happens in all stadiums of the world (cf. Italy, hooligans, etc) - Let the players leave the country as they wish: people don't root for them; people root for their clubs (the jersey of the club can go 'alone' to the field that the true fan will follow it). When you go to the field you don't say : 'I root for Alex Mineiro', you say 'I root for Palmeiras'... - Rio? Beach competing with football? Nope: beach first, game follows, bar next. Perfeita sintonia ... Remember, folks: Who is speaking here is a fanatic and inconformed paulista guy LOL...