Another Hypothetical Situation

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Kebbie Gazauzkas, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. Kebbie Gazauzkas

    FC Krasnodar
    Bulgaria
    Mar 29, 2007
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Bulgaria
    Team A on the attack, Team A forward has just rounded two defenders and only has Team B's goalkeeper to beat..the referee notices/is informed by the AR that two players (Team A defender, Team B striker) who are on the other side of the pitch (Team A's half) are about to come to blows. Does the referee wait for the Team A forward to shoot or round/lob the keeper (it's an excellent goalscoring opportunity for Team A) or is he supposed to immediately stop play and separate the two combatants/prevent the confrontation? What would be the proper restart in the latter case?
     
  2. boylanj64

    boylanj64 Member

    Nov 7, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Stop play immediately - his team is involved in the altercation, so there can be no advantage. Restart is a drop ball if nothing happened before I whistled, IDK if someone did something stupid prior, or DFK if that something stupid was striking etc.
     
  3. Kebbie Gazauzkas

    FC Krasnodar
    Bulgaria
    Mar 29, 2007
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Bulgaria
    @boylan, thanks, great response! But if it were two Team B players (teammates) about to start a fight with each other (while Team A is attacking), the referee would have a harder time explaining his decision/may be better advised to wait for the shot on goal?
     
  4. boylanj64

    boylanj64 Member

    Nov 7, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes - if it was an OGSO, wait for the shot, but it had better be ovious and fast because I'm not waiting for a play to develop. On a decent sized pitch, you're at least 40+ yards away from the two players and won't get there that fast anyway, so the second won't be as vital as it could be.

    If it is only a marginal opportunity and I do stop play, I suspect team A will be happy enough with playing up two players.
     
  5. nonya

    nonya Member

    Mar 2, 2006
    Hopefully if you have an AR with some common sense, he can come onto the pitch to separate the players just long enough to allow the play to develop.

    For a HS game, I might stop it, since safety and sportsmanship are rule #1

    For college, let the play develop or your in big trouble. USSF would depend on the age, game, etc.
     
  6. hradilv

    hradilv New Member

    May 21, 2004
    Elmhurst, IL
    Club:
    Crewe Alexandra FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think I would amend that to say - "before I decided to whistle". Isn't that when play stops?
     
  7. boylanj64

    boylanj64 Member

    Nov 7, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Certainly true - considered adding that, but decided it goes unsaid. As you point out though, if he scored before any sound came out of my whistle, it never happened.
     
  8. gosellit

    gosellit BigSoccer Supporter

    May 10, 2005
    Which AR is giving you the information? The trail AR or the lead AR? Can we assume beeper flags or not?
     
  9. jkc313

    jkc313 Member

    Nov 21, 2001
    You are stopping play for misconduct on the field by players involved with what would appear to be violent conduct. Are you suggesting a dropped ball for simultaneous infractions? That seems a stretch. Get with the AR that raised the flag and see who started it. If there's nothing serious going on, why would you stop play? USSF doesn't want us stopping play unless it's serious. Seems to me from description we're loking at 2 send-offs and a DFK or PK depending on who started it and where.
     
  10. hradilv

    hradilv New Member

    May 21, 2004
    Elmhurst, IL
    Club:
    Crewe Alexandra FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're (partially) right - if it is misconduct - UB - restart for misconduct is an IFK, if you can figure out who "started it". That is probably not going to be easy. The OP stated that the players are "about to come to blows". Nothing has happened yet. You stopped play to keep it from getting any worse -> drop ball.
     
  11. whistleblowerusa

    whistleblowerusa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 25, 2001
    U.S.A.
    You should let play continue. If AR is in front or near the incident he/she should step in and manage. If no AR is near wait for the shot or just after and stop play. If it is in front of you, the referee, either handle it by getting between or wait for the shot and then stop play.
    The period of time to either shoot or stop play before any intended misconduct is almost the same. If striking or some other misconduct occurred before the shot and that shot winds up a goal than the goal would be disallowed anyway, assuming that both players did so. Allow the shot and then stop play to deal with the misconduct. If you stop play to deal with the misconduct the restart would be an indirect free kick from where the infringement occurred. Now, if you can not determine if it was one player or the other then dropped ball would be the right restart.
    If the players are on the same team and not the attacking team, let play continue and then stop play if still needed or wait until the ball is out of play. If you stop play to deal with the misconduct the restart would be an indirect free kick for the opponents from the place of the infringement. If the two players are from the attacking team allow play to continue if a goal is scored disallow the goal and send off the two players and restart with a goal kick.
     
  12. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    Re: the drop ball.

    If (1) you stop play to defuse the situation, and give no cards, then the drop is from where the ball was at the time of the whistle.

    But if (2) you whistle and the fracas has broken out, yet you can't tell who initiated, is the drop from the spot of the fight, or where the ball was at the time of the whistle?
     
  13. hradilv

    hradilv New Member

    May 21, 2004
    Elmhurst, IL
    Club:
    Crewe Alexandra FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Drop balls are always where the ball was when play was stopped - unless inside the goal area...
     
  14. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    whistleblower, I was with you 100% til that part. Question, if you are going to disallow the goal anyway, why let play continue? Why not stop immediately?

    Second question for the group in general. I would think that you would NOT blow the whistle cause something "might" happen. If you blow the whistle something DID happen! If they are mouthing off, let em, let the AR, or you watch or tell em to nock it off if possible, but unless they actually cross the line to missconduct or foul, why stop play? If you stop play, then hopefully they've crossed that line.
     
  15. snolly g

    snolly g Member

    Aug 21, 2008
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    i was wondering the same thing. how can anyone call a foul that hasn't happened yet?
     
  16. whistleblowerusa

    whistleblowerusa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 25, 2001
    U.S.A.
    We are not talking about actual game situation answer here. By the book is how i answered that scenario. The reason being if a goal is scored but an infringement by the scoring team has occurred before the goal it must not be allowed. Plus as you question in your second question how can you stop play if nothing has happened yet? So, wait and see and use the appropriate action.
     
  17. DadOf6

    DadOf6 Member

    Jul 4, 2005
    Taylorsville, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Game disrepute.
     
  18. hradilv

    hradilv New Member

    May 21, 2004
    Elmhurst, IL
    Club:
    Crewe Alexandra FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No such thing ;^)

    Perhaps USB, but really, I look at it this way. As usual it depends on the level of play. If they're just kids, sure I'm going to try stop something before it starts. The options are (1) let it go until there's a fight and all heck breaks loose or (2) stop it from happening then drop the ball and get on with the game.

    Remember - it's for the kids.

    Cheers,
    Vince
     
  19. boylanj64

    boylanj64 Member

    Nov 7, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I read the scenario as they were already bumping chests and the misconduct was clearly going to be/being committed, it was just a question of stopping it before it became a RC situation
     
  20. DadOf6

    DadOf6 Member

    Jul 4, 2005
    Taylorsville, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is such a thing and IF we see it and IF we stop play because of it a caution is given for USB. In my game report I will write that the card was for USB because of "game disrepute."

    I agree that the best thing to do is to stop it before blows are strown. If I think a fight will break out without my intervention then as far as I am concerned "something" has happened and I need to try to stop the a more4 serious "something" from happening.

    Suppose I do blow my whistle. I have just publicly said that something happened that was serious enough to stop play. If I just restart with a dropped ball then I have wimped out. Why did I stop play? A foul? Misconduct? Injury? Lightning? Outside interference? Offside?

    I've said that the players' bad behaviour merits the same result as if I had inadvertantly blown my whistle. Not a message I want to send.

    A dropped ball with a pair of cautions sends a strong message to the players and it is a lesson that apparently they need to learn. I'm not doing them any favors by refusing to send that message.

    A firm hand is a way that a referee can keep the game being "for the kids."
     
  21. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    OK, I can agree with this, my question was that I thought people where stopping play BEFORE any miss-conduct happened, hence the dropped ball restart for what I assumed was inadvertant whistle. A dropped ball for simultaneous infractions I can get behind!

    In my mind, if "whatever they are doing" is enough for me to stop play to deal with then missconduct or a foul HAS ALREADY happened and I will restart in the appropriate manner. I was just curious on the thought process of the stopping "before" something happens. Vastly different than before something "else or worse" happens!

    All good.
     
  22. hradilv

    hradilv New Member

    May 21, 2004
    Elmhurst, IL
    Club:
    Crewe Alexandra FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not in the LOTG that I have...

    That something serious was the impending safety concern. Isn't safety first and foremost? I don't have a problem with it.

    I agree that if the behavior warrants cautions, e.g. USB then sure give the cautions, but I would still stop play even if it was just short of cautions - especially for kids games. I'm talking like U12 or lower - or maybe even up to U16 if not competitive. It's just a game - it doesn't have to come to blows before I stop and get things back on track.

    YMMV, however.
     
  23. ref47

    ref47 Member

    Aug 13, 2004
    n. va
    page 114 of the interpretation ...

    cautions for unsporting behaviour
    acts in a manner that shows a lack of respect for the game
     
  24. hradilv

    hradilv New Member

    May 21, 2004
    Elmhurst, IL
    Club:
    Crewe Alexandra FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks!
     
  25. PVancouver

    PVancouver Member

    Apr 1, 1999
    I would like to see the dropped ball restarts under Law 12, for simultaneous fouls or misconduct by opposing teams, or misconduct off the field of play, be directly added to "Fouls and misconduct are penalised as follows:". The way it is written now, the Laws themselves (sans Interpretations) seem to indicate that a dropped ball is not an option.

    The ATR amplified this view of simultaneous fouls in 2005, revising the last paragraph in 8.5 DROPPED BALL to say:
    Referees should take care not to use this option as a means of avoiding a difficult but necessary decision as to which player committed an offense first and which player retaliated. The referee must not use the dropped ball to restart play as a crutch in those cases where there is some question about the correct restart. The referee must make a decision and announce it firmly. See Advice 9.3. [concerning simultaneous touches for throw-ins]​

    This paragraph remained in the 2007 version. I don't have the 2008 version.

    The allowance for a dropped ball restart for simultaneous fouls was first given in the 2007/2008 LOTG Law 5 Interpretation.
     

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