Andrew Carleton

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by ielag, Jul 8, 2018.

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  1. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Off the field issues can be corrected.
    He wouldn't be the first first (Quaranta, Szetela, etc. etc.) and he won't be the last.

    I'm not worried about the national team programs right now. Get the club career on track and the rest will fall into place (or it won't).

    We're about to have four more expansion teams entering MLS, diluting the domestic talent pool even more. I find it hard to believe that Andrew Carleton won't be on an MLS roster. Hell, if I'm Claudio Reyna and Josh Wolff down in Austin I might view him as an interesting prospect for an expansion team. Low risk; high reward. If he's out of contract, he might be in the expansion draft...................
     
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  2. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can't wait for Andrew to livestream "The Decision" of going to play for the Tulsa Roughnecks.
     
  3. Dirt McGirt

    Dirt McGirt Member+

    Jun 20, 2005
    Phoenix, AZ
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wouldn't be disappointed if my Rising took a flyer on him. Fix and flip deal.
     
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  4. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I'm going to try to balance on the Carleton hate you see from most people that post. People who read these threads need to hear a few different perspectives.

    To those of you who don't know what to believe about this player, consider that what people here who dislike the player have said might not be true.

    This will be a long post, but there's been too much garbage posted earlier that needs to be addressed. Maybe I'll return next season to give some thoughts. Two posts this year is enough for me in this thread.

    1. First of all, I find it pathetic that there's such a disdain by so many for a 20 year old kid they've never met. It's absolutely bemusing to me. What is funniest here is that so many people here pour all this hate into this guy, insult him, and then keep coming back to do so. They insult him and his career, but care so much about his career. It's all very puzzling. It's not everyone. Some are fair to the guy, but a lot aren't. Everyone knows where they fit in. There's no point in naming names.

    To begin with, I cannot understand why anyone would have such a strong negative opinion on the off-field happenings of a pro athlete they don't know. It's one thing to dislike the on-field product, especially if they play for a team you're a fan of, but having such hate off-field gets into the bizarre territory, unless you know the guy.

    Maybe he's wronged some people who spew vitriol against him. I don't know. I speak for myself when I say none of the players discussed on this website I know personally. I wish all of them well in their lives, but thats their business. It shouldn't be a public product, as far as I'm concerned.

    The fact that we can't discuss this guy's success on the field is sad. Why do people care so much about this guy off the field? Do you know him? Has he wronged your life? I thought we were all American soccer fans.

    2. I think I know why so many people have a strongly negative view, and I don't think it's all for same reason with everyone. There are people here who don't like the success he had in his youth career and the hype he got because of it. You can see it in their rhetoric and they've admitted it, at times. They didn't like that Carleton was getting attention, and their kids or players on their kid's teams or their kid's friend wasn't getting it. Jealousy, in other words. This guy is a white kid from the deep south with a thick accent, eccentric hair/clothes/personality. Not exactly everyone's cup of tea. Some people dislike player's for their appearance and how they come off.

    There are some people that don't like his style of play. They think he's too flashy, he's too creative, he's not athletic enough, he showboats too much. Then they lump in stuff like he plays no defense or his effort is inconsistent or any of the usual tropes. These players almost always have it tougher in perception.

    Then there are a number who love to pile on. A lot have spewed vitriol towards this guy in recent years and predicted his demise, so some people will follow the lead.

    3. What a lot of these people who dislike this guy and say all types of unverified things about him off the field have never done is provide evidence that Carleton has some personality that is beyond reproach in a locker room or outside of the locker room. It's all so strange. If something was clear, why doesn't anyone know anything about it?

    Sometimes, perception is reality. It doesn't matter what is true and what is not. If you get a bad reputation, fair or not, it can follow you around. It was part of why this guy was left off the U-20 WC team in favor of clearly worse players. It's probably part of why he's playing this season in USL as opposed to MLS or abroad, although he said that he had interest from MLS this season. This guy has a bad reputation. Do we know what he had thats so terrible? No, we do not. It doesn't seem like anyone knows, but perception can become reality.

    4. What's funny is that only two people under the direction of one regime (Atlanta under Bocanegra with Martino and de Boer as coach) have ever had anything bad to say about him. In fact, the current Atlanta coach has said great things about Carleton. The current coach of the team he currently plays for says great things about him.

    His professionalism is lauded with his current team for how he didn't decide to sit out the rest of the season after breaking his arm. Instead, he played with a huge club on his hand, which hampers him. Nobody had bad things to say about him at youth levels. Nobody ever had bad things to say about him before the question came up of why a player who deserved playing time for Atlanta wasn't getting it.

    Atlanta United badmouthed him two years in a row. He claims the things they publicized to hack reporters to report weren't true. Yet, he didn't try to fight back against the club. If he did so and responded, we can be sure his professionalism would've been questioned. It's a no-win situation. If you show restraint in not responding to what you perceive to be false allegations against yourself, vitriol is spewed against you for being such a bad person. If you respond, you apparently aren't mature and badmouthed the club who spread false allegations against you.

    5. I've brought this up many times before, but I believe this was a plot orchestrated by Atlanta to selectively leak stuff about Carleton and scold him in ways they didn't for other players because he was in the way of the playing time for their big signings from South America that they spent millions of dollars on. He came in from the academy teams at the wrong time for Atlanta. They needed to get him out of the way. There hadn't been any sales of Americans for anything of note. South Americans would be more profitable, if they came good.

    Every single preseason with Atlanta United that he was part of, he excelled. Preseason is a time that a coach has to use all their players. In other words, fans can judge for themselves. All these preseasons led people to question why Carleton wasn't playing more. He was as good or better than these high priced South American signings. He also would do well in the few brief appearances he got in competitive games (1G,2A in 538 minutes)

    Why wasn't he playing more? This is when it became easy to start selectively leaking about Carleton. If you can't find on-field reasons for why he shouldn't play, start spreading allegations (true or not) that would cast doubt of whether he should even get an opportunity to play.

    6. Did he have some off-field problems? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I think a lot of the people who talk about these things don't know either. I've yet to come across anyone who knows what they are talking about here or has any real knowledge on the situation. I've actually not seen one credible source anywhere describe his off-field problems. Carleton claimed years after Atlanta dragged him through the mud that none of the incidents that Atlanta publicized by leaking reports to hack journalists ever happened. If this stuff was so evident or obvious, shouldn't a lot of people know about it?

    What a lot of people don't realize or don't think about is that there are many talented young players with off-field problems. There are numerous players talked about very highly in this very section of this website with off-field problems. Why haven't we heard of these things? It's because there was never a reason to publicize any of it. In fact, clubs (and I strongly presume the national team) have tried to hide some of these things. I have that on good authority.

    If you go back to Atlanta's roster, it's not hard to find off the field problems. A few years ago, Ezequiel Barco missed a few games for making advanced towards a teammates girlfriend. Thats exactly the type of thing that can and has caused huge strife in many locker rooms in sports. What was the result? He missed a few games. He was back in the lineup after that playing poorly.

    7. Has anyone ever thought of where these guys that were apparently way better than Carleton are?

    Miguel Almiron: The lone guy with significant success in MLS. Sold to Newcastle for 21 million pounds. The results at Newcastle? 9G, 5A in 4515 minutes (G/A every 322.5, a catastrophically bad rate). Huge flop at Newcastle.

    Ezequiel Barco: Purchased for a reported 15M transfer fee, the highest in MLS history at the time. His stats to this point are 11G, 11A in 4598 minutes (G/A every 209 minutes). There was a recent discussion how bad that type of rate is. If it's not terrible, it's certainly no better than you'd get from a replacement level MLS veteran attacking midfielder. Another flop. This one didn't even have success at Atlanta United before flopping.

    Yamil Asad: Brought to MLS, then went back to Argentina, now back in MLS as somewhere between a starter and a rotation player for one of the worst teams in MLS. His career MLS stats are 17G, 16A in 6403 (G/A every 194 minutes). At best, we are talking about a replacement level MLS'er. DC United fans often question why this guy is a starter for them.

    Tito Villalba: 22G, 19A in 5889 minutes (G/A every 143 minutes). He was an upper level starting winger in MLS, not much better. Since then, his career has went down hill. Rarely got any playing time in Mexico. Now back in Argentina, and not playing all too well.

    Pity Martinez: Purchased for a reported 14M dollars. Came in with Argentine NT caps. Struggled in MLS for a player with his price tag. 11G, 14A in 4000 minutes (G/A every 160 minutes). He was about a league average starting AM in MLS. Never much better. Didn't live up to the hype. He was supposed to dominate MLS, and then be sold to Europe. Eventually sold to Saudi Arabia.

    8. None of the guys Carleton supposedly couldn't beat out that they needed to suppress his development for have developed into big players in Europe. Only one guy has even gotten to Europe. Some of the others failed in MLS.

    People criticize Carleton for mentioning he hasn't been given an opportunity yet, but he's exactly right. It's almost like people are scared to see him get an opportunity. What happens if he's really good and plays well when he gets an opportunity in MLS? He might be good and people might be forced to admit they were wrong. Wasn't he supposed to always be very good? Does no one else find it strange that a player a lot of people spew vitriol towards and insult the career of has never actually gotten a chance to play regularly in MLS? It's not often players with such a high youth pedigree don't even get onto the field in roughly the 20th best league for any prolonged amount of time.

    Some people want to always want to sweep his play with Atlanta in competitive games (and preseason) under the rugs as things that can't be talked about. We can't talk about that he was good when he played. They meanwhile want all of us to believe that he's not actually good and doesn't deserve an opportunity. Supposedly he has off the field problems from years ago no one knows much about or have ever been verified as being having that are going to keep him from getting a chance.

    You can understand why the player would be waiting for his chance to get on the field.

    9. Quite frankly, this whole redemption story some have tried to paint makes no sense, and its vomit inducing. Some of the people that fed into the initial black-balling campaign are now trying to paint a redemption story. You hear all about how his play is so improved this season in his USL play. It actually isn't very different from prior years in USL. He's now not playing on a terrible team that loses every game, so his play gets more plaudits when he does well.

    There's almost nothing different. There's no indication that he's corrected any off the field problems that created problems at Atlanta. He's not once said that was the case. He's said that he's continuing to mature and learn, which should be happening for any 20 year old kid.

    There's really not much of any story other than he's a year older and still waiting for his chance. He's earned it, and we'll see how it goes, if he gets it. No one that thought he was a good player ever said he deserves anything other than a fair chance to prove how he stacks up. I'm sure thats all this guy wants, as well. Hopefully he can get it next season. I would be very careful with the vitriol spewed towards this guy. There's a good chance you are going to have to eat your words eventually, and I think a lot of you know it. There's a whole thread of it here, and many other comments on this website and elsewhere about the internet.
     
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  5. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    I'm still trying to figure out what are those horrible things that Carleton done that caused all that hate. OK, he was immature and dumb, he hurt mostly himself. He isn't where he could be and that's partially his fault, but he is still young, he is still able to read the game faster than the most, in a couple years he might be a totally different player.
     
  6. kingshark

    kingshark Member+

    Mar 3, 2006
    Since the Atlanta United days are over, what really concerned me was he cannot even get decent minutes in Indy Eleven! I wonder why? If not because of on-field problem, then some behaviour issues again?

    Anyway, he has already been under three managers and two teams, but his lack of play time continues. it's really hard for his supporters to blame something rather than himself.

    So my conclusion is the same as before:

    1. He is good but not one of the top tier prospects (if he is, every normal manager in MLS level would use him regardless of his behaviour, and also there would be quite a few Euro teams show interests.)

    2. Some of his behaviours (we don't see the whole picture but can only guess based on some leaked source) does not help.
     
  7. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Multiple coaches and multiple teammates questioned Carleton's work ethic and commitment to the game in Atlanta. There's little reason to believe that's not true or a conspiracy as Carleton has even admitted it, even if he puts some blame on the team (which may or may not be justified).

    I don't root against him. He's still young and a lot of people need to mature at his age. Perhaps he will. Perhaps he already has! I know he looked pretty good earlier in the year.

    Perhaps the work ethic is there and he will improve. Perhaps the work ethic is there and his athleticism will limit him. Perhaps he never quite commits.

    But dude, this delusion about some massive conspiracy across two coaches, multiple players to blackball Carleton? That's hilarious.

    Atlanta certainly didn't handle something right about him, and there's no doubt in my mind they went "tough love" with public criticism, but this weird "oh, they wanted to play high priced foreigners so they had to blackball and destroy Andrew Carleton's career" is completely insane.

    Atlanta won the 2018 MLS Cup with those overrated foreigners. Carleton spent the night before partying. He posted about purple drank. And more than one of his teammates -- his teammates! -- made public comments about his maturity and commitment.

    If you are right, Carleton should be destroying USL. He's not. Three assists in 600 minutes ain't bad, though, and he's 20. I don't really get people who feel a need to "write him off" -- pay attention or not, but why do you need to post it?

    But holy cow, dude. Sometimes players don't pan out, and work ethic is a common cause. This shouldn't be such a surprise that it necessitates a conspiracy theory.
     
  8. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You left out your best Carleton conspiracy theory. That ATL brought in Tata Martino as an Argentinian spy, sent here to ruin Carleton's career in order to sabotage the USNT in an act of international espionage.
     
  9. Lookingforleftbacks

    Galaxy
    United States
    Dec 17, 2016
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Speaking in absolutes about a 20 year old is a good way to get things thrown back in your face a few years later. Especially on BS. Archives don’t forget.

    80-90% of the best USMNT players ever didn’t debut for the senior team until they were older than 20.

    His off field issues will be a thing of the past if he moves to an MLS team and plays well and keeps his act together. What concerns me is he is still a little wasteful and still plays with a lack of confidence until one of his creative plays pulls through or he contributes to a goal. He still has some antics when he’s open and doesn’t get the ball or he makes a good pass that goes to waste.

    But he’s still one of the best and most creative passers in the pool. All of his issues are still fixable. He’s going to be one of those guys we can’t really write off until he’s either too old or can’t find a club.
     
    TimB4Last repped this.
  10. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    While I don't disagree that it is too early to write him off, many players in various sports have come back or broken through when much older than Carleton....it could happen.

    That being said, he does have several things going against him. While it is true that the vast majority of the best USMNT players didn't debut before 20, that really isn't too meaningful when very few at any level had their debut before 20. That is changing so that a debut before 20, for his peers, is becoming much more common.

    Most players that breakthrough to greatness at a later age didn't climb to the edge of greatness only to fall off the map. Look at soccer, look at football, basketball whatever. Think of the top can't miss player that falls off the map....how many repair their careers to the point where they achieve greatness?

    Carleton shouldn't be written off yet, imo, but I wouldn't bet a big pile of money that you need for rent on him either.
     
  11. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Off the top of my head, I remember Phil Nevin, who was the #1 pick in baseball, knocked around for years, was considered massive bust, then became an All-Star with my hometown Padres.

    Chauncey Billups was considered a bust who became an All-Star and a strong leader known for clutch play.

    It's not super common, of course, but not unheard of. Carleton is still very young.
     
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  12. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    There have always been high profile prospects treated this way on the boards.
    I think its not really "hate" for the player or the person. I think people get tired of reading the hype and glowing reviews of a player when they don't see it themselves at all. That's fine. I don't know why they have to express it. Just don't post on the thread.

    Gallegos and Carleton are in the same division. They're both playing well in the same division. They're both 19-20. Folks should be talking about them in the same manner, but they're not. One is talked about like he's OVER and the other is being talked about as a USMNT candidate. We had a discussion about whether Gallegos could be called up to the senior USMNT from the USL.

    Carleton gets this abuse because his star is seen as fading from uber-hyped prospect while Gallegos is lauded because for most people he came out of nowhere. Even though they're pretty much at the same place............................

    I mean, we can't say Carleton is irrelevant on these boards. He was called up to the U20s on multiple occasions............in 2019!
     
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  13. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    Liverpool
    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    After living in Ohio through the Johnny Manziel era I’ve learned that sometimes off the field habits trump talent in a negative way, I think Andrew is soccer’s Johnny Manziel
     
  14. derek750

    derek750 Member+

    Apr 16, 2007
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Anyone who's been around for a while has seen more than a few wildly hyped youth players fail to live up to expectations. People had hopes and dreams for Renken, Flores, Zelalem, Akale, and so on. We've all seen their names in hypothetical national team lineups over the years.

    There are also posters who get overinvested in specific young players and view any criticism of those players as an unfair slight that must be immediately corrected.
     
  15. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a result of our soft, cupcake culture.

    Rest of the world sits back and waits for prospects to pan out. But there's a pocket of US soccer fans who literally hitch themselves to teenagers and get all emotionally invested. Then when criticism is offered, it's labelled as hating, abuse, wanting to derail careers, etc, etc.

    And it's ludicrous.

    When someone questions an 18/19 yr old college football or basketball player's likelihood of succeeding as a pro, it's considered a normal convo. Maybe there were some Jimmer Fredette fans who got all emotional when people questioned his ability to succeed in the NBA. They would be similar to Carleton fans.

    Of course, the same people who push back so hard against questioning Carleton have no problem themselves calling Zardes a donkey. So.......

    What people generally push back against is the constant overhyping of players who've done nothing of real significance at the pro level. For whatever the reason this same segment of US soccer fans has a real difficult time differentiating between a prospect and a legit high level pro. Which again is odd given in the American landscape the entire convo around drafts and the NBA/NFL is college players ability to translate their games to a higher level. And every season high draft picks are busts.
     
  16. #1 Feilhaber and Adu

    Aug 1, 2007
    As Canada already told us before they whooped us, the US already did all the work for them.

    All you got to do is continue to put this guy as the core and on the field.


    [​IMG]
     
  17. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #2342 Clint Eastwood, Oct 1, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
    A lot of those guys had injuries. Others.................Will Packwood, Marc Pelosi, Kyle Scott, the list goes on.

    We're also getting to the point that if a youngster doesn't look like he's on the Pulisic, Reyna, Dest, etc. trajectory at a "big club" then he's not worthy of discussion or consideration. That he's a failure. Balderdash. The same thing that happened with Carleton and other young Americans players happens in Argentina, France, and Spain too. Players develop at different rates and in different ways. Players find the right "club fit" and opportunities at different times.

    I saw with my very own eyes that Carleton was fine for an MLS level when he got an opportunity with Atlanta. I'm no scout, but he looked like he fit in.

    What I'm about to say isn't rocket science. Carleton simply needs to sever the cord to Atlanta and start over with an organization that's invested in his development. He's only 20. He's the same age as Alex Mendez or Sebastian Soto. Those guys are trying to get on track too.

    Why can't Carleton be a "late bloomer" to the USMNT like say.............Sebastian Lletget? He could not get an opportunity at West Ham for years on end. Moved to a different club, made progress, and had his most capped year in 2019 as a 27 year old.

    Not every player in the USMNT is going to be a 17 year old prodigy.
     
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  18. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    acting like starlets flaming out is because of the usa is pretty incredible and requires a rather large set of blinders
     
    gogorath repped this.
  19. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    Liverpool
    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    So not true. If anything other cultures and countries hype up their young players even more than we do because they get significantly more media attention
     
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  20. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. Atlanta just had (have?) no idea how to develop players. Atlanta has admitted as much! They had some of the best prospects three years ago. Carleton at Indy is the best that has come of all of them.

    I think Goslin is in Bulgaria or somewhere and I have no idea where Kunga is.

    Bello is getting minutes now. Not sure where he was last Fall. Or why he wasn't released for YNT stuff when that was a thing. But the current team is horrid and I'm not sure getting minutes on it is that big a hurdle.
     
  21. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    Liverpool
    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    There wasn’t a u17 camp that Bello missed that he was able to be at. For the u20’s, Bello just didn’t make the team
     
  22. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    He wasn't released for a U17 camp, in December 2018.

    dirtysouthsoccer.com/2019/1/24/18194204/mls-or-the-u-20-world-cup-tab-ramos-and-where-to-play-the-kids

    Pretty much a start of a lost year for him. Some injuries, some Atlanta doing Atlanta things.
     
  23. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member+

    Liverpool
    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    Atlanta were also calling him up to the game day squad in their playoff run at the time when they won that year. It’s not like they just left him out just to mess with him. Atlanta made it known that they’d withhold players from camps in 2019 after Miles Robinson got hurt at a usmnt. They didn’t hold kids hostage from usynt camps before that
     
  24. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    like a famous philosopher once said..."it ain't over til it's over" and 20 is just beginning. or maybe close to the end of the beginning....
     
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  25. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    he's got time but he doesn't have time to waste.
     
    gogorath repped this.

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