Analyst: Williams has yet to complete an attacking pass

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Matrim55, Nov 11, 2011.

  1. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Tell it to Klinsmann.
     
  2. mannycoon

    mannycoon Member

    May 13, 2009
    Bradley isn't an incisive passer, neither is Edu. Bradley is however a better distributor; the changing the point of attack, getting the ball out to the wings (what was important when we had real creative players on the wings) and quick touches to help start counterattacks. None of our CMs are incisive passers, not Edu, not Bradley, not Torres, not Kljestan, not even Jones or Holden. The only exception is maybe Feilhaber, but he the worst defender of the bunch. If we are looking for incisive passing from the CM spot to generate offense we will fail, that is why Bob didn't even try it.

    As for the recent games with Bradley and Edu both playing at Klinsmann's #8 spot, Bradley had easily better passing stats than Edu and generally received much better reviews from the press.

    Also saying Bradley hasn't shown anything at the club to level to differentiate himself from Edu or Torres, who have never played at any particularly high level, is real a stretch and probably can only apply if only focus on the last calendar year and ignore everything else.
     
  3. deron

    deron New Member

    Jul 25, 2006
    Centennial, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree and disagree with this.

    Beckerman's a stylistic preference. I find it pretty easy to rate and compare Bradley, Jones, Edu, and Clark. They all seem to be attempting to play the same game. Beckerman's game is just different than theirs. There's more patience in it, variety of pace, and the focus is less on athleticism. The only US player who's similar is Nick LaBrocca - another player who won't win a beauty contest.

    So yeah, letting Beckerman play his game, which he did against France more so than he has in other games, does suit him and it changes the team. I don't know if it's for the better.

    The issue I see is that it does mis-cast Edu - who I thought played better than the reviews suggest - in a role that I don't think he can really perform well at. That's bad. What's worse is I don't think Bradley, Jones, or Clark would help either, and to heap more trouble on I don't think we'd have enough defensive strength if we pivoted the midfield to include the players who might help - Dempsey, Torres, Feilhaber, or Donovan. Holden might work though if the stars align and he returns to health, as he does provide more two way options.

    So I'm not optimistic about a midfield with Beckerman, even though I think he played well.

    I don't think Williams has anything to do with it, nor Shea. Williams because he's just not very good on the right. And, Shea because France was his worst performance and he can do better.

    The other issue is Dempsey. I think that Jurgen will play him where he is regardless of who he puts in midfield, which is alright but the outside mids have to be far more competent.
     
  4. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    At the international level, if you're not going forward, you're going backwards. By this I mean if you aren't well-rounded you will be exposed and the collective team effort will suffer. Trying to create a "total" football side isn't going to be easy when the parts have less than AAA rating. Short of that, BB wasn't doing too badly!
     
  5. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    There's an over-emphasis on central midfield given the area hasn't been a consistent fount of creativity for the US since the John O'brien years. The more important and easiest adjustment to make is to simply move an appropriate player into the right midfield berth. Dempsey would be the obvious selection.
     
  6. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    in the last 2 they both played; Bradley made 50 and missed 8 in 70 minutes. Edu made 47 and missed 9 in 110 minutes. Edu made 4 tackles Bradley 1. So Bradley is going to spray around a few more passes that are not a threat than Edu's which are also not a threat. Edu will make a few more tackles. Not a big difference, its a wash. If we want pivot offense from the #8 neither of those 2 are going to provide it!

    :confused: Where did I say that?
     
  7. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Great summary!
     
  8. Adiaga Two

    Adiaga Two Member+

    Oct 4, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So two (supposedly meaningless) friendlies where we played like garbage are more important indicators of quality than an entire previous cycle of largely successful national team results?
     
  9. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Edu has played most of his club career as an 8; he's not miscast especially in Klinsmann's system.
     
  10. TheLostUniversity

    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Feb 4, 2007
    Greater Boston
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's not misplaced..that's where he plays best...but he is miscast...he is nowhere near good enough to play where he plays for the USA, not as a starter at least.
     
  11. Aaryque

    Aaryque Member

    Apr 26, 2007
    Norcal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If he's not miscast, then he's simply not good enough. Your choice.
     
  12. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    This season has actually been the first since Edu's initial Rangers breakthrough in 08/09 that he's been playing the #6 role. He's done it partnered with Steven Davis as the #8 pretty much every match since August.

    And of course Jones has always excelled as a #6 for Schalke, Blackburn and back at Schalke again, while Williams has made his breakthrough as the #6 for Hoffenheim. Beckerman plays the role for RSL, and Bradley has done it off and on for the US and a couple times for Chievo although he's mostly been a #8 in his European career and for the US.
     
  13. Aaryque

    Aaryque Member

    Apr 26, 2007
    Norcal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If I remember correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Bradley had significantly more "recoveries" than Edu. If this is true, while he may not be making as many tackles, he is gaining possession for his team more often.
     
  14. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Recoveries 10 v 7 in favor of Bradley.
    Free kick won 4 to 1 for Edu.
    Key passes (non-set play) 2 to 0 for Edu.
    Passes forward 26 to 25 Edu.
    Attacking half 25 to 19 Bradley.
    Attacking half forward 13 to 13, tie.

    Please note Edu has played 110 minutes to Bradley's 70 so rate per minute will be different.
     
  15. Aaryque

    Aaryque Member

    Apr 26, 2007
    Norcal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cool. Thanks.

    Obviously my "significantly" was an overstatement.

    Now, if only I had the motivation to calculate each stat per minute played.
     
  16. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are no new conversations :D
     
  17. Aaryque

    Aaryque Member

    Apr 26, 2007
    Norcal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll just continue mining you for information. What do they mean by balls recovered? Specifically, what is the difference between a ball recovered vs. a ball won?
     
  18. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    How many times does it have to be explained to you that those stats are corrupt and meaningless?
     
  19. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lets see, the Barclays Premier League, Bundesliga, MLS, other leagues, ESPN, FOX, and 100s of other media outlets endorse the OPTA stats but you don't. :eek:

    OK, you are right and everyone else is wrong. Please compile the correct stats and I will use them from now on.
     
  20. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A recovery is a change of possession where you receive the new possession. You do not have to have caused the change in possession.

    Example: your teamate makes a tackle, block, interception, or clearance and you get the ball you are credited with a recovery. If you make an interception and retain possession of the ball you are credited with both an interception and a recovery.
     
  21. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    So be it.

    Anyone drawing conclusions based on the mlssoccer.com OPTA stats has no clue about how soccer is played or what soccer is about.

    PS You don't even seem to know what you're looking at. Talking about a "prolific passer" when you count in headers, free kicks, corner kicks, kick-offs(!) ...

    EDIT: PPS @ TheHoustonHoyaFan, After you've read this post once, read it again and again and again. Then think about it for like... a week. Then if you still don't understand the above write me a reply.
     
  22. mannycoon

    mannycoon Member

    May 13, 2009
    You didn't say that last part, someone else did, should have added an extra quote section there.

    Anyway the stats are clearly in favor Bradley he's basically completed the same amount of passes at a higher percentage and had the same amount of recoveries + tackles in 64% of the minutes, so he was basically 50% more productive in his time on the field, which seems significant.

    Obviously not everyone likes those stats, so if you want to look at non stat sources, Bradley received better reviews from the media and obviously his long term track record is better.

    I don't think Bradley needs to be assured a spot or anything like that, but Edu clearly hasn't been the answer and Bradley and Jones were the incumbent starters and have the best club background of any of our healthy CMs and have played exactly 0 minutes together in the 6 and 8 roles, to me it seems ridiculous to not even try them out together. It also seems ridiculous to continue to play Williams in the role where he has been playing.

    I think we tend we do best when we have as many attacking threats on the field as possible as our individual attackers are weak, so it helps to compensate with numbers. Whether they are threats through scoring, passing, running off the ball, aerial threats, set piece specialists, it doesn't really matter to me as long as they are out there and can support the attack in some way or another and can adequately handle their defensive responsibilities (no Adu in deep CM role silliness). The set ups Klinsmann have been using definitely have not been doing this and our offense has been terrible.
     
  23. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you wnat to have it both ways. First the OPTA stats are meaningless, now you want to nit pick my inclusion of corner kicks in the passing counts. Lets subtract the 6 corners from MB's totals that brings him to 44 in 70 minutes or a pass every 1.6 minutes. He is still the most prolific passer!
     
  24. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Against Mexico, Beckerman at #6, Jones at #8, Bradley at #10 started the match and went 72 minutes. When Jones went off in the 2nd half we had Bradley at the #8 for ~12 minutes.

    I can understand some of the angst re any player who has not got a chance, but Bradley has had time in camp and on the field. He has not shown anything on the field during the JK era to suggest he is any kind of an upgrade over Edu.
     
  25. cleansheetbsc

    cleansheetbsc Member+

    Mar 17, 2004
    Club:
    --other--
    Just to point out in MB defense, many here claim he was rusty at the GC for lack of play time. By August, being frozen out at MGB, he should have been even "more rusty." So to use that as his example of his play isn't quite the best measurement.
     

Share This Page