Analyst: Williams has yet to complete an attacking pass

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Matrim55, Nov 11, 2011.

  1. manq360

    manq360 Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Portland, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I remember when it was announced that M. Vasquez was going to be an assistant, most of BS members complained. I can now see why, if, he indeed has the coach's ear. I think JK needs to rethink this selection and bring in someone who will be "helpful" not someone who may or may not have an agenda of his own.
     
  2. Dooglas

    Dooglas Member

    Jul 30, 2005
    Las Vegas, NV
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    that whiteboard picture if true is ugly. lets put our right sided attack on the shoulders of the smallest/almost oldest player on our team. that will work.

    williams was never tucked in against france, he never had the ball on the inside in the final third, and like the stats show, never completed a forward pass in the final third.

    if the picture is true then all of williams's quotes about preferring the inside are false. JK is basically giving him the CM position next to edu if the whiteboard is right.
     
  3. 7211

    7211 World Class

    Jun 28, 2010
    Please tell me why it matters what Klinsmann's whiteboard looked like before the game? Everyone here has seen that diagram. It's not some new piece of material that you've stumbled upon. It's actually from the Honduras game.

    The fact of the matter is that Williams regularly pushes out to the touchline and is caught in 1-v-1 situations in a more advanced attacking position than Cherundolo. You can call him a CM, RCM, CDM, RDM... call him whatever you want and then write it on a whiteboard. Semantics won't change his actual field positioning over the course of the game. And it won't change the fact that he's out of position.
     
  4. Dooglas

    Dooglas Member

    Jul 30, 2005
    Las Vegas, NV
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    based on the picture dempsey was out of position for a lot of the match as well. playing a defensive role.

    that diagram has no back arrows for him, full attacking mid. looks like williams is supposed to push up into space next to dempsey in the attack, i would be curious to know how many times the ball was passed between the two
     
  5. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    http://www.mlssoccer.com/sites/all/...sMTUyODUmZmlsdGVycz0xJnpvbmU9NjUsMiw5OSwxMDA=

    This is the entire team's completed passes in the final third against France. You'll notice a distinct lack of forward/incisive passing. (The ones from the touch line are throw-ins).

    The other thing to look at here is the heat maps of Beckerman, Edu and Williams. Beckerman and Edu played almost exactly the same positions, except Beckerman was a little to Edu's left. If anything, Beckerman got forward a bit more than Edu did. Williams was to the right and positioned slightly forward, but only slightly. His center of gravity was just about at the center line, and near the right touch line.

    Dempsey's was actually pretty close to exactly how that picture is drawn, if you adjust the opponent to France instead of Honduras and figure they're all just a bit further back. Dempsey's center of gravity was at the top of the center circle and just beyond.

    Shea was the most advanced. He probably was positioned in the right spot to try to get some threat going, his teammates just executed fairly poorly when they tried to get him the ball.

    Compared to the picture above, put Kyle where Maurice was in that picture, Maurice level with him but directly behind Dempsey, Danny nearly as wide as Brek on the other side, but behind the dashed line where Shea and Dempsey are above it (in this game, the 'dashed line' is not far in front of the center line).
     
  6. minya

    minya Member

    Mar 27, 2008
    san diego, ca
    Very asymmetric on defense. Both Beckerman and Edu were mostly on the left. Altidore was helping exclusively on the left. It shows that Chandler, Boca and Shea were totally outplayed and needed all help they could get. Despite France having Ribery on the opposite side. That's also where the goal come from as well as an identical shot that Howard managed to stop.
     
  7. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    It was definitely stacked to the left overall. Chandler being the left back, you have to wonder whether he was the biggest 'culprit' or whether we were overly worried about him, because it gave the other guys a lack of room to breathe. Shea especially, you see how self-contradictory his job was out there. He was trying to position himself to be the most attack-oriented mid on the field, but he was getting pulled back a lot.
     
  8. minya

    minya Member

    Mar 27, 2008
    san diego, ca
    Chandler had a horrible game. The idea that he is a left back savior is very suspicious. And then Jones for Beckerman. Jones is playing mostly on the right and we are done.
     
  9. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    Because folks claim Williams is played as a right winger.

    Yes and in the last three games this has been the system. One deep left winger (complete fail vs. France), one "right midfielder", one open operational zone on the right for players to dive into.

    Precisely. And it won't change the fact that he's not a right winger, and is not played as a right winger.
     
  10. Adiaga Two

    Adiaga Two Member+

    Oct 4, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Regardless of where you think Williams plays, he shouldn't be getting more than sub minutes with the USMNT until he establishes himself as a starter at any position with his club for more than a month.
     
  11. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    I'm not sure what to say here, but in contradistinction to the Honduras diagram, Williams was on the right touch line in this one, at least as much as Shea was on the left one. Williams was positioned slightly further back, but still not as far back as Beckerman or Edu.
     
  12. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    Based on the heatmap?
     
  13. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    Yeah.
     
  14. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    You mean the "in possession" heatmap or the "out of possession" heatmap?
     
  15. 7211

    7211 World Class

    Jun 28, 2010
    Call it whatever want. He's occupying the space that most closely resembles something in between right winger and right mid. It's not so crazy for that position to be referred to as right wing.

    That picture you decided to post as some kind of evidence to support that he's not a right winger has absolutely no relevance. I could grab a piece of paper right now and right down that he was a sweeper all game. Won't change the fact that he pushed forward and dropped back on the right side as much as Brek was doing on the left.
     
  16. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    I believe it measures player position, disregarding whether he has the ball.
     
  17. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    Again: Klinsmann. Did. Not. Play. Him. As. A. Right winger.

    That is why the image is relevant.
    If you would claim he played as a sweeper, I'd show you the same image.
     
  18. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    Yes so it's pretty worthless.
     
  19. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So that's all you have then. A picture.
     
  20. 7211

    7211 World Class

    Jun 28, 2010
    You do realize the game wasn't played on that whiteboard, right? Those lines on the board aren't the actual players. The lines were actually made using a dry-erase whiteboard marker.

    Klinsmann may not have Played. Him. As. A. Right. Winger. But Danny Williams most certainly played himself as a right winger.
     
  21. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    Well I'm still waiting on your picture.

    So yes it's all we have; A Jurgen Klinsmann Original Whiteboard Photograph by Alex Hoyt.
     
  22. Real Corona

    Real Corona Member+

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thats all I needed to hear.
     
  23. 7211

    7211 World Class

    Jun 28, 2010
    lol
     
  24. 7211

    7211 World Class

    Jun 28, 2010
    Hold on a sec. How do you know the outcome of the game if France doesn't have their players on that whiteboard picture?
     
  25. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    The fact of the matter is that Williams' movement and positioning resembled a right winger/midfielder. The argument you make that Klinsmann intended him to be otherwise only serves to bring up more question marks.
     

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