One long post: Looking at other leagues, especifically Colombian and MExican, new rules were made in order to have young native players get minutes with their clubs IN Colombia, a few years back it was made into law that each first division club HAD to field one Colombian born player who was less than 20 years old in the starting lineup. Maybe it comes as little coincidence that Colombian youth teams have been the strongest i recall seeing in years, competing head to head with their Argentinian and Brazilian counterparts..... Mexico has just adopted a similar measure, stating that at least one Mexican born player less than 20 years and 11 months old has to get at at least 60?-65? minutes of play each game with their club, starting this season... It's too early to know how much good (or not) this will do for them.... Simply judging by the law of averages, i think their upcoming Olympic team might have more seasoned club "veterans" than before..... In MLS, where we have all these designations, and players with green cards who don't count as "international", could we do something similar to "help young American players"?..... Take into account that the age of 20 is used in COlombia and Mexico becasue it is felt that such age -or earlier- is deemed best to start turning good young players into professionals with games under their belt..... IN MLSnet's player roster.... the following are the youngest player, who are about 20 or younger....Took names of players born in 1985 or afterwards: DC 9 Freddy Adu M 1989-06-02 DEV 1 DAL 12 Arturo Alvarez M-F 1985-06-28 DEV 2 RSL 20 Nikolas Besagno M 1988-11-15 DEV 0 MET 16 Michael Bradley M 1987-07-31 DEV 0 CHI 19 Craig Capano M 1985-07-07 DEV 3 MET 23 Danilo da Silva D 1986-11-26 DYI 0 (Brazilian) RSL 21 Sergio Flores D 1985-02-22 DEV 0 CLB 21 Luis Gallardo M 1986-06-27 DYI 0 (Panamanian) MET 24 Eddie Gaven M 1986-10-25 2 9 Guillermo Gonzalez M 1986-01-04 DEV 2 MET 11 Abbe Ibrahim F 1986-07-25 SYI 0 (from Togo) CHV 17 Christian Jimenez M 1986-11-03 DEV 0 CHI 16 Will John M-F 1985-06-13 DEV 0 CHI 30 Will Johnson F 1987-01-21 DEV 0 (Canadian) DC 24 Nana Kuffour F 1985-02-27 DYI 1 (Ghanian) CHV 1 Rodrigo Lopez M 1987-05-10 DEV 0 CHV 6 Francisco Mendoza M 1985-04-29 SYI 0 (Mexican) COL 26 Fabrice Noel F 1985-07-21 DEV 0 (Haitian) DAL 11 Ramon Nunez M 1985-11-14 DYI 1 (Honduran) CLB 17 Danny Szetela M 1987-06-07 DEV 1 MET 2 Tim Ward D 1987-02-28 DEV 0 RSL 22 Jamie Watson F 1986-04-10 DEV 0 CHI 6 Demetrius White M 1985-07-26 DEV 0 So from a quick look into these names, besides the Metrostars (bringing up young Americans in Gaven, Ward, Bradley, heck even a couple of foreign youngsters in Da Silva and Ibrahim), DCU, not really sure as to the minutes he gets (in Adu) , the Fire (in Capano and Will John ), Dallas (with Alvarez).....Edit: forgot Szetela in Columbus.....There is not much else......From what i know (Metros, since i follow them), we give lots of minutes to very young Americans-whether in Gaven and/or Ward and/or Bradley-..... So in that sense, Metro would be the only team i see that could "play" under the rules given in Colombia and/or Mexico, which have the theoretical purpose of helping develop youngsters (which is what we also want as an American league for American players , right?) Just looking at the rosters from KC, SJ... not even ONE 21 y/o American, never mind 20 y/o or younger (not a real criticism, just pointing this fact out) Now, should MLS put more emphasis in developing young Americans by having more MLS coaches put them on their rosters and maybe once in a while even giving them minutes? You know, have more people share the responsibility of developing young Americans 20 or younger?
That's what the reserve league is for now - quality minutes for young players. I'd rather have our current young players earn their minutes. No weird rules forcing coaches to play them. The U.S. is progressing via MLS without such a crutch.
I would say we need to move in the opposite direction. Allow more foreign players, not less. Make the young players earn their place. MLS should get the best players they can, whereever they come from. I hate to risk hijacking this thread, but it's hard to look at Convey v.2004 and Convey v.2005 and say what he needed was more molly coddling. Earning his spot has brought him up to a level where we can really get excited about him.
How big a pool is there of 20-year olds who want to play in MLS? If there are going to be these automatic spots, they still must be contested for.
I could not said any better and after this developments in Colombia and Mexico we better get out s#*T together if we ar aiming at have the best soccer league in the planet.... What still perplex me is why USA soccer have to be bringing foreign youngster to play in MLS when there are several native players that have show more quality and performance than their foreign counterpart
what i'm seeing when looking at the player rosters for all MLS teams is not so much that we do not have youth.... We do, after all, have quite a few 21-22-23-24 year olds.....But not so much in the other direction 20-19-18....even less Americans, and even less getting many minutes with their first teams..... I think the reserve teams will help somewhat, but won't address all issues... I have nothing against reserves teams, or developing some players through it..... BUt i think we are -just by looking at rosters- not placing enough of the 20-19-18 y/o Americans in them..... therefore losing some of the chances we might have in developing more, more numerous, and -who knows- perhaps even more talented American prospects.....
Yeah...I am with you, lets fire all foreign youngsters that are not worth a crap and with the money save MLS could make a juicy offer to MARVEL WYNNE ....
Agreed. No way should MLS ever adopt such ridiculous rules. You want the US youngsters to be the best they can be? Make them compete for playing time.
Well yeah USA youngster need to competitive and if after a waiting period they can't perform to the level that is require they should be replace but not by foreign players but to more american talent that is waiting in line for an opportunity
That's why it's just an idea, not something that necessarily needs to be done (although i'm starting to lean that way) To switch around what you are saying:If there was a rule asking for an AMerican player 20 y/o or younger to get some minutes every MLS match.... and it was made public, say after this season ends: Would that in turn create the pool necessary to fulfill this rule? (ie many youngsters, 20 or younger, who feel are capable of playing at this level..... coming to MLS and fighting just to be part of the roster, knowing that at least one of them will get minutes, or maybe a couple of others per team too due to injuries, suspensions, national team call ups, etc.) One thing i forgot to mention, and that i've noticed is a result of that rule in COlombia..... Many coaches (and goodness knows this also applies to MLS) will by and large not try placing too young a player on areas of the field that make the team too prone to defensive breakdowns (like goalies, defenders, etc.....) ...So therefore as result of this rule, the youngsters who get minutes are usually part of midfield or forward duties.... where mistakes are not punished as harshly.... Would this help develop more creative American attacking midfielders, or more killer American forwards ? that's an open question....
It's a mixed bag. On one hand, I think you're right that first-team playing time makes a big difference. Part of the reason Argentina has so much talent is that their youngsters start to get regular minutes by age 18. When this has happened in the US, we've seen that our players progress quickly, too. Convey was one of the stars of the U-20 World Cup, and Donovan and Beasley were still U-20s when they played well at the real World Cup. So, it's clearly valuable to get our top prospects minutes. The question is whether restrictions are the right way to do it. Looking at teenagers like Adu, Bradley, Szetela, Gaven, and Ward, I'm skeptical about whether restrictions are necessary. By contrast, in Mexico it's been rare for any teenagers to play regular minutes. If we ever come close to a situation like that, I'll be 100% behind you.
It does sound interesting. I wouldn't want to throw the idea out. We just saw the U-20 World Cup and the likes of Messi and Pelle at forward. But we also know that Feilhaber opted not to join MLS. Perhaps Wynne, neither. Also, there's the matter of young players adjusting to the speed and physicality of MLS. Let me ask you, could you see this program or this rule being used in England? Because MLS at its roughest seems to be about wanting to play like the English, regardless of season, temperature, etc. I don't want to see more young players if they're going to disappear in games the way Adu does sometimes, because the play is so direct and a guy just isn't allowed into the match. (And coincidentally, there was that reserve player - a forward! - for Dallas last night who also had nothing to do in the match. Play just bypassed him. You can't make players pass someone the ball.)
Because of the dependence on College soccer it is hard to implement such a plan. But you are right about KC,SJ and NE. They do not have anyone under 21, not even on the reserve teams. These three teams tend to play well in MLS but they are not necessarily teams I would want to depend on for future US Nats. Some of these college bred rookies are 23 or 24 upon turning pro. Of course Dempsey comes from NE, but the best Nat players are the ones who are pro prior to turning 22 (which Dempsey did). If the US ever wants to win the WC, we need to bring in more and more under 21 players in to MLS. Maybe better starting salaries will convince more to turn pro early or forego college.
You forget that most players develop outside of MLS in the US, mainly in the college system, up to around age 22. This may change as clubs set up youth academies and more players bypass college as a route into MLS, but for now there just aren't going to be many sub-20 year olds available, compared to other countries. If you said 22-24 year olds, I'd say "fine", but I don't think any team is having problems starting players of this age anyway.
Umm... how is playing against (and with) marginal, inexperienced domestic talent, by league mandate, going to improve our younger, domestic players? I'd rather go the other way: loosen the restrictions on SIs or scrap them altogether. Can you imagine the MLB or NHL engaging in discussions like this? No bloody way. The teams play the best players, regardless of their age or nationality. Seriously, if our 20 year olds aren't able to play consistently in MLS, so much so that they need a league-wide rule guaranteeing them playing time, they should go look for new professions.
I'd rather MLS began to pay ~ $50K to the promising youngsters, tempting them to turn pro before their 20th and become full-time footballers instead of having to work in Circuit City part-time to make ends meet.
I think FIFA is the one entity trying to step up in terms of having the big league Euro clubs have more native players in their rosters and/or reserve sides (ie more English in the EPL, Spaniards in La Liga, atc..... I remember reading an article on that, and also some BS poster discussing this issue..... Yeah, i agree with the premise... and even though this idea might look from some angles as discriminatory, i think the "Dempseys" that get developed in MLS will still continue to appear, that is, this rule would not preclude them from playing.... Just looking at this year's rookie of the year leading candidate (which to me no doubt is Sealy) ....well, he is 24 already, and is not American.... it does make you wonder if a rule such as the one i'm referring to could work as a nice motivation/hook for more/younger Americans to try join the league, perhaps many of those who were not lucky enough to be among the project 40 program players....
CAn we agree that the MLB, NHL (or for that matter NFL or NBA) have the best players in the world already, while MLS doesn't..... and that, they do not place much importance in national teams as a way to improve their leagues the way MLS does, and even much less depends on American talent -as much as MLS- as their best source of cheaper talent to nourish their leagues? Not only that, but these leagues (unlike MLS) do not have so many limitations on much they market themselves, player development, nor do they sell players abroad..... I think it is apples and oranges....IMHO
That's how i see it too.... And of all the examples/players you mention..... a majority is from Nike's Project 40, correct? I would think this rule might/would benefit those outside project 40..... Going to the list i had posted, and excluding non Americans, this is what remains DC 9 Freddy Adu M 1989-06-02 DEV 1 DAL 12 Arturo Alvarez M-F 1985-06-28 DEV 2 RSL 20 Nikolas Besagno M 1988-11-15 DEV 0 MET 16 Michael Bradley M 1987-07-31 DEV 0 CHI 19 Craig Capano M 1985-07-07 DEV 3 RSL 21 Sergio Flores D 1985-02-22 DEV 0 MET 24 Eddie Gaven M 1986-10-25 2 LAG Guillermo Gonzalez M 1986-01-04 DEV 2 CHV 17 Christian Jimenez M 1986-11-03 DEV 0 CHI 16 Will John M-F 1985-06-13 DEV 0 CHV 1 Rodrigo Lopez M 1987-05-10 DEV 0 CLB 17 Danny Szetela M 1987-06-07 DEV 1 MET 2 Tim Ward D 1987-02-28 DEV 0 RSL 22 Jamie Watson F 1986-04-10 DEV 0 CHI 6 Demetrius White M 1985-07-26 DEV 0 that's 15 American players, about 1 per club on avg...20 or younger..... outside of the Metro trio that DO get playing time (which drops the avg. of every other club that EVEN HAS 20 year olds or less, never mind PLAYING them), I only recall CApano, Adu, Alvarez and Szetela getting regular PT (Szetela lately IIRC).... Could there be some other youngsters (20 or less) in America that would be willing to become part of rosters with this incentive? I was trying to be as cheap as MLS wants to be right now, and trying to look for ideas/solutions that way....Silly me!
There's a difference in being cheap vs. being short-sighted. If MLS offered $50-75K to top high school players, most of them would skip college and go straight into the Superdraft. As it is, colleges offering soccer scholarships offer a greater value for the prospects, at least for the first two years as they decide whether they should stay with the academics or pursue a pro-career. Those are two years lost for MLS.
One point to add here: before the advent of the reserves, MLS teams had only a limited capacity to accommodate players who weren't ready for the starting line-up. So it made sense to bring in (mostly) P-40s who looked like they were already prepared for first team minutes. Now that a richer development system is in place, the time has come to sign more players at a younger age, and to try to grow some of them into stars.
MLS needs to put the best soccer out on the field. Quota systems are for the weak and prejudice and a recipe for mediocrity. Either earn you playing time or don't play. The matter from what country you were born in.
A similar rule exists in Germany, in the region divisions with a requirement for german nationals U21 and U26 (I think). So there's actually two sets of criteria that must be met. This probably does help ensure that young germans get playing minutes - but I think the key here is that it is effectively the German 3rd division. I don't think this concept has any place in MLS. Let's face it - there's already foreign player limits...that pretty much guarantees at least 4 US nationals in the starting XI and 12 americans in the matchday squad at home. okay, so this does include greencard holders too, but that doesn't necessarily mean those players might not one day represen the US anyways, such is the way international football works (Africans on the German team, Canadians on the England suqd and Brazillians on the Japanese team- amongst others) This might work, but only at the expense of the existing restricting - the YI and SI.
my point was more to the extent that, anytime MLS is blamed for "being shortsighted" others will say "Well, MLS is building stadiums first, etc,etc," or "it's not your money, etc. etc. etc. " NOw if this'd would be a way to do it, with MLS not spending boatloads of money and yet getting good youngsters to start their professional soccer lives earlier ( then supposedly/perhaps developing even better American players as result) then maybe it's not such a bad idea...
I never really liked the idea of reserve teams. The do have some usefulness, but I feel that players who aren't able to contribute on a regular basis in MLS should be loaned to lower division clubs. That would do more to keep them sharp than any number of reserve games. However, I hold a different opinion of young players. They're different because they're the future of league. A league only concerned with it's present will always be mediocre in my opinion. MLS has to take control of it's youth development because some league coaches just aren't open to using young talent. It's understandable since their jobs are on the line, and an old veteran player seems a safer bet than someone who is young and unproven. To help get around this I would like to see every MLS team have a mandatory U-21 team. They could pay each player a low base salary in addition with $10,000 college money for each completed season. Player dormitories could also be provided close to the training grounds. With a MLS U-21 League in place future young players (like Adu) who join the league wouldn't have to hold onto a full MLS roster spot. If done right with the great concentration of young talent, and professional resources, the level of play should be higher than college soccer. If a team decides to not add a player to their full roster once they are overage they can be snapped up by other teams. If a player can't find a spot anywhere they would still have their college money to fall back on.