Over on www.USLdiscussions.com someone brought up a topic on MLS reserve teams and, in effect, going back to the initial agreement MLS and USL had of affiliating teams with one another as part of a solution for MLS's reserve team concept. My idea is a little different and just wanted to see how others view it. Basically,my idea would have MLS teams buying A-league or PSL franchises. The Reserve team would play under their own idenity (the LA Solar Systems, Chicago Embers; okay crap names but you get my drift.) They could share training facilities, Front Offices, and if the MLS team has their own stadium, it would increase their revenue with A-league home matches. Allow the "reserve team" have their own coaching staff which would play a similar system to the first team and you can develop players in competative matches week in and week out. A soccer match is only going to have 15-16 players dressed for a MLS match compared to the 20-28 players on a team. Add a few more "reserve" players to a secondary roster and you have the A-league (or PSL) team. It in effect, solves a few problems for MLS; developing youth, increases roster size and salary caps. At the same time it adds more teams to the A-league/PSL and gives the USL a solid partnership with MLS. I'm sure it has it faults but it seems like a win/win situation to me
I believe that in the long run there has to be some sort of agreement between MLS and A League to set up some sort of minor league systems, kind of like baseball. But at the same time, there seems to be some sort of bad blood between the two organizations, ever since the contract between the leagues for calling up players expired. And also I think that MLS would not be involved unless they had a large measure of control, probably something the A League doesn't want to give up. So while yours is a good idea, I don't think there's much chance of it happening in the near future.
Okay, given the discussion in this thread, the intention of MLS to form reserve squads and some unconfirmed vague rumors of "big things" happening with the PSL, how about this speculation... 1. MLS forms reserve teams in the PSL. They could form a team by affiliation with an existing franchise like Utah Blitz for RSL or NoVa Royals for DC Utd. Or, they could form an entirely new team, filling out the regional structure of the PSL. 2. PSL plays a regional schedule. Conference champions go into a playoff. In addition, to reward their success they will be promoted to A-League in 2006. Or, some arbitrary number of teams could be promoted after the playoffs. 3. A-League plays a national schedule. For the 2005 season, there will be no relegation. Subsequently, if there would be more than 16 teams in the A-League, teams at the bottom of the table would be relegated. A team to be relegated and a team to be promoted in the same region could agree to forgoe that, so that the lower level team could avoid the expense of competing nationally. 4. In the case of an existing A-League team like Seattle or Rochester which gets a new team in MLS, they would either form a new reserve team in the PSL or affiliate with some other team where their reserve squad could play. The vacancy in the A-League would be filled by promotion. 5. New professional franchises always enter into PSL. There would be no new A-League franchises built from whole cloth.
what I think might be easy to miss, the MLS concept for reserve matches will likely be very INFORMAL. rosters at 28 next year will be difficult to fulfill two squads. Key to the idea, is the idea of two MLS reserve squads playing the Monday after a Saturday match. the bench players who played little to no minutes will be key in getting enough players. if the teams were to join a USL league, it'd be hard to schedule them as cheap as just travelling with the main team and using the players not playing many minutes for these matches. I'm not sure 28 will be enough to get it off the ground next year but I'm hopeful. Any plan to "join" a USL league seems at least a couple years off.
Neither does MLS. Bottom line, there's nothing we offer them. They're more than happy signing 22 year old college kids to fill their available roster slots.
The initial things that I heard about the MLS reserve teams was also like that. But then in an interview with FoxSportsWorld, Ivan Gazidis mentioned that they would want to work with USL to have the teams play in an existing league. So I don't think that it's that far fetched that they end up playing in one of the USL leagues. Below is a link to the article. http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2901088
that's true. remember that now. but I think for the first few years that they'll at most have several exhibitions. PDL would be the best fit but might not be allowed to "join" since it's mostly amateur. The current A-Leauge/PSL need to take shape (especially PSL) but I can't really see these squads fitting in now.
Im against farming A-league teams to MLS teams as well. If their is an individual agreement worked out with clubs like the Battery had when they loaned out Chris Bagley to the Revs in 2002, thats good for them. but my key to my idea is MLS teams starting their own USL teams. If they want to send players up or down between their own team, thats their choice. But their would be no affliation with current teams. I know MLS isn't really interested in "helping" the A-league and im sure the A-league isn't to interested in helping MLS, but this idea seems to benifit both MLS and the USL. Like i said before some of MLS biggest grips are addressed: larger salary caps, add 10-15 more players for the reseves which increase their rosters and gives them some more international slots, and room for developing younger players. USL gets more money from added franchises plus these franchises have a vested interested in surviving. Im sure it wouldn't happen in the next couple years and granted the exact details of MLS's proposed reseve squads hasn't been finallized so the idea is just speculation. Besides, teh offseason is long and we have pleanty of time to figure out how to solve all the US soccer problems and solve world peace at the same time. Mikey
What MLB did to minor league baseball is not the model I'd want for soccer (calling up exceptional players' during the season, playing untested rookies over experienced veterans in order to "develop them" for the parent club, lack of promotion, advertising, etc). MLS teams owning A-Leagues is not a good idea judging from past baseball experience IMO.
The PDL is only a good fit in the sense that it is large, there are plenty of teams, and it would help reduce travel costs. Competitively, it's a terrible idea. Although there are a few really good PDL teams, they are generally made up of unexceptional college players. It's hard for me to imagine an MLS reserve squad that wouldn't be as good as last year's Chicago Fire Reserves, and that team simply dominated the league (until an unfortunate playoff exit). PDL games would not be enough competition for the MLS reserves. The PSL hardly exists anymore, it's not really worth discussing. I agree with swedcrip's critiques of MLS reserves in A-League.
That's precisely why it's worth discussing. The league is fully professional, so you won't be getting into issues with the NCAA. The addition of 10-12 teams would go a long way toward stabilizing it and giving it an adequate geographic dispersion.
Joe Guy I dont' think the MLB model comparison is accuarate. They often come in to established teams and then work affiliations, then poach the players. Im talking about an MLS team starting their own A-league/PSL team in the same city and freely sharing training, styles, and to some effect, rosters. Basically giving the coach a roster of around 35 or so players to pick from come game time. Bribey, I think the MLS would gain a lot from this: by being able to develop younger players, while at the same time essentially expanding their own rosters by another 15 players or so. With no salary cap in USL, MLS teams could use their AL/PSL team to "creatively" increase their salary caps. They can still sign their 22 year olds but now players like Ngwenya, Dipsy Selolwane, Craig Capano and even Freddy Adu could get some real minute in competative matches week in, week out. PanicFC, why do you think their would be no agreement between MLS and USL is it the hardheadness of many MLS/USL suits that probably would never entertain the idea? Krammer, I understand you don't wnat MLS and USL affiliation is that just a personal preference or is their another reason. Thanks for all your feed back. keep it coming
Do any teams remain in the Western United States? Although teams remain in the East, there's several that are not significantly better than their PDL counterparts. The PSL might be somewhat useful for D.C., the MetroStars, maybe New England and Columbus. But, for Utah, Los Angeles, Chivas, San Jose, Colorado, Dallas, Chicago and Kansas City, it's entirely worthless, there are no teams even in adjacent states. While it would obviously be good for the PSL for MLS reserve teams to join it, there's no reason for MLS to subsidize a division that is pretty clearly failing.
What you're proposing Mikey sounds like what Germany and Spain (amongst others) do, which is to have their reserve teams play in lower leagues. I don't see this working however, with each side having a reason not to want it. I doubt MLS would like it because of the extra travel required even at the PSL level. Unless teams LA and SJ would onlu have to go to the southwest, or Chicago and Columbus would only travel through the midwest, then it would become prohibitively expensive. Remember, reserve teams in other countries play in divisions that cover no more than a quarter of their country, and those countries are no bigger than Texas. If you tried to stay local, the only place enough where you 'd get enough teams is at the PDL level, and there's a whole can of worms there. I can also tell you, from first hand experience, that it would not go over too well with Frank Marcos either. When I was working for the LA Salsa of the APSL in 93-94, they had a farm team in the USISL called the (East) LA Cobras. The USISL always complained that the Salsa ownership always treated the Cobras like nothig more than a reserve squad (which they were), and weren't doing anything to promote the Cobras nor the league in general in the SoCal area. I can see MLS doing the exact same thing. Selling reserve games would be a huge undertaking that I just don't see MLS front offices taking the time to do, much to the shagrin of the folks in Tampa.
Well the last USL/MLS deal was crap for the MLS teams, plus I don't think MLS has that much extra money to run an A-League or PSL team. All comes down to $$$$$
MLS wants to the the only source of soccer in the USA. How do you do that? 1) Control all talent: Draft and stash. 2) Control the markets: Take all the plum markets. 3) Control the merchandise: Contracts with adidas etc., that keep non MLS/adidas stuff out of the stores. 4) Control the mind share: Publicity and "news" to get out the desired perception that only the MLS delivers soccer. 5) Control the clinic and youth training market: Programs to lock in local Youth Soccer Leagues to only host MLS branded training, even when there is better player development locally avilable. 6) Kill off the competition: Dry up their fan base, weaken the prospect of their economic survival and make deals only in self interest. Having reveled the MLS "plan". How does Reserve Teams fit into the above agenda? You figure!
Wow, I didn't realize there were USL conspiracy theorists. Let's address this madman's criticisms: Yeah, wicked MLS is stealing all of the A-League's talent. Save, of course, all the players they develop or bring to America for the league, like Jeff Matteo, Chris Brunt, Jonathan Bolanos, Byron Alvarez, Alex Bengard, Byron Foss, Michael Ueltschey, Nick Walls. I could go on, but needless to say, most of the players MLS "stashes" wouldn't be playing pro soccer anymore if not drafted by the league. Yeah. MLS currently occupies 10 markets, going up to 11 next year. Without even addressing the possibility of USL teams playing in MLS cities, open metro areas are Philly (6.3 million), Detroit (5.8), Miami (5.4), Houston (5.2), Phoenix (3.6), Cleveland (2.9), San Diego (2.8), St. Louis (2.6), Tampa (2.3), Pittsburgh (2.5), Cincinnatti (1.9), Sacramento (1.8)...on down the list. MLS isn't exactly taking away all the good markets. I don't think it's MLS that's keeping the Atlanta Silverbacks jerseys out of the stores. Actually, MLS can't even get their own jerseys into the marketplace, much less keep others out. Yeah, those media people are MLS shills. I get tired of seeing highlight after highlight of that D.C. United-New England on Sportscenter. I have no idea about this. Yeah, that's terrible how MLS only makes deals in their own self interest...stupid 'capitalism.' I'm tired of all these damned attack ads, where Landon Donovan and Freddy Adu come on tv and are like "Don't go watch the Kalamazoo Kingdom or the Richmond Kickers. That's what we like to call Minor League Soccer." If it weren't for MLS's negativity, the USL clearly would have brought US Soccer into full bloom years and years ago.
MLS's current attitude towards USL is pretty much "don't care" and "not worth losing money on". Nothing more, nothing less. We can debate all day if it should be more of a relationship or less, but I don't buy any "conspiracy theory".
I agree with eveerything else you say except this. I think the A-League can be very successful continuing in the size markets they are in now. The only problem is the USL just doesn't have the capital to do some of the things that need to be done. Unfortunately.
Mikey: What you propose sounds fine and dandy, however minor league baseball was doing alright until one man (Branch Rickey) started the "Farm System" which ultimately wrecked the minor leagues. What is to prevent a soccer version of Branch Rickey to do exactly the same? There is always someone looking for an "unfair advantage", willing to bend rules, do anything to get ahead, and sport too often has paid the price. I would want some ironclad guarantee that what you propose wouldn't eventually be sullied by some nitwit's greed and stupidity. joe guy
While I'm not sure that MLS reserve teams being actual USL teams is a good idea, I'm also not sure the "the PSL hardly exists" argument holds much water. There are 9 teams currently in USL 2 (and might have been more, had the west not been decimated, forcing the remaining teams to either move up or down). Would not adding 12 new MLS-affiliated PSL teams bring that up to 21 (at least), which would make it pretty different from "hardly existing"? But I think that would be a far more expensive approach than just adding a few developmental players to current MLS rosters.