An attempt to realistically look at what's coming

Discussion in 'Chicago Fire' started by bigredmachine, Aug 19, 2016.

  1. OK, so the Fire will not be in the playoffs again. OK, so this is a rebuilding year. Add to this the rumored problems related to ownership, Bridgeview, etc., and the view is pretty dim.
    I've been a season ticket holder since 1997. I remember the good old days. Seems like long ago.
    As regards ownership and Bridgeview, there is little that we can do, so we need to put that aside.
    As far as the team goes, I may be in a minority, but I think the roster, coaching, etc. are better than they have been the past two seasons. That said, there is an obvious lack of quality in the roster, especially experienced talent. All we can expect for the remainder of this season is some progress in the development of our younger players.
    Even our best players have deficiencies. Accam is a young talent, but he still doesn't see or sense when a pass would be better than a shot attempt or vice versa. Hopefully that will improve. Players like de Leeuwe and Goosens provide better quality and experience that most of our other options, and to develop players like Accam need seasoned veterans to play with. Haven't seen enough of Solignac yet. Haven't seem Arshakyian at all, but he is most likely a longer term project who will hopefully be better than, say, Orn Barruch.
    Thian is rough, young and could still develop. Polster is athletic, aggressive, and offers hope for the future, but he still only plays with one foot. Our back four all deserve time. Vincent seems to have some limitations. Campbell is ahead of where we could have expected him to be. Kapelhof has been our best player. Ramos is very young and should be much better. I, for one, hope we get rid of Sean Johnson. He may be a nice guy, but he will never be a winning goalie. Not assertive or decisive enough. Too prone to mistakes.
    This year there will be an expansion draft, so we can only protect probably 11 players. May be time to wheel and deal.
    Some say Pauno should be playing the youngsters more, but he sees them in practice every day and if they aren't playing they probably don't deserve to. We need a major infusion of talent. If ownership and cash flow issues are constraining that then there is little hope. I've been surprised that the attendance has held up as well as it has. I'm getting older and I will stick it out until we see what happens in January, but frankly if there is not some decisive movement by then, I may have to let my season tickets go out of sheer frustration. Hope that doesn't happen because the Fire have given me almost two decades of really enjoyable times.
     
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  2. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    A very well reasoned post, but I can't really get behind any of it. I'm not convinced that the coach or roster is better. I think you should take Accam out of the equation for the future because I can't see any chance of him staying here past this year. As to the young players and practice, remember that we jettisoned Shipp, Magee and Jones based on the soul mates evaluation of them in pre-season practice. Assuming that they are getting better at their evaluations (not an assumption I am willing to make), I simply can't believe that LaBrocca, Stephens, Harrington et al., are superior players to Colin Fernandez or that he shouldn't at least have gotten a shot in actual games. If you are resigned to the idea that this is truly a rebuilding year, then you play some of the young players for an extended time to see where they are at. And no, Sean Johnson is not the problem. I'm not saying that you don't attempt to upgrade. There isn't one spot on this team that you wouldn't accept an upgrade if it is available. However, the philosophy of the soul mates seems to be that you start with getting rid of the most reliable pieces of the pie first, which makes no sense. You CAN win with Sean Johnson, but not with this team.
     
  3. lncolnpk

    lncolnpk Member+

    Mar 5, 2012
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't forget the 50pt goal set by Nrod, so not really a rebuilding year.
     
  4. sportscrazed2

    sportscrazed2 Member+

    Jul 30, 2008
    Mordor, Middle Earth
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  5. Martininho

    Martininho Member+

    Feb 13, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #5 Martininho, Aug 19, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2016
    Fundamental flaw to your entire argument. This is NOT a rebuilding year, this is a long-term race to the bottom. "Rebuilding" by definition means that there is an intent by those with the authority and means to seek improvement. There is no such intent with the Fire.

    THE SOLE CONCERN OF THE OWNER IS TO EXTRACT MAXIMUM VALUE FROM THE RISE IN VALUE OF THE TEAM THAT IS CAUSED BY THE RISE IN VALUE OF THE LEAGUE, GENERALLY, UNTIL HE DETERMINES THAT IT IS TIME TO SELL OR IS FORCED TO BY OTHERS. THE OTHER MINIONS EITHER FALL IN LINE, OR MAKE DO WITH PROGRESSIVELY LESS EACH YEAR.

    Any other...ANY other, interpretation has been crushed by historical facts over the past nine years...this is not an anomaly, a series of mistakes, or even entrenched incompetence. This IS the plan. Deal with it accordingly.

    THAT, my friend, sad as it is to say, is the REALISTIC picture of what has been, what is, and what is coming.

    That is all.
     
  6. Fanaddict

    Fanaddict Member+

    Mar 9, 2000
    streamwood IL USA
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No GM in any sport is going to admit it's a rebuilding year because they want to sell tickets THIS year. We will have to wait and see who they bring in next year and if Andy or the new owner full fills the promise of spending Keane type money.
     
  7. FrenFan

    FrenFan Member

    Jul 16, 2010
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Agree with this post. Only inaccuracy is that Magee was in with the team in preseason. His option was declined in November and he signed as a free agent with the Galaxy in January.
     
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  8. FrenFan

    FrenFan Member

    Jul 16, 2010
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Wait and see time with Hauptman is over.

    He's shown over a number of years that he's unwilling to do what needs to be done. He has a certain amount to spend every year and because of it he cuts corners on everything.

    The emperor has no clothes, he hasn't for a long time.
     
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  9. lethargytartare

    lethargytartare Member+

    Oct 2, 2000
    Magrathea, Horsehead Nebula
    Club:
    Yeovil Town FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    I get most of what your saying, but what has Pawno done in his entire career to deserve this benefit of the doubt?

    He lucked his way through a youth world cup with a bunker for OT/penalties strategy, and seems to think that can work in MLS as well.

    He benched a superior GK on the basis of practice and an assertion, not backed up by performance, that one was better than the other at playing the short game.

    He started a mediocre center back from Portugal at DM rather than even look at younger players.

    I've got zero faith in Pawno's current ability to evaluate this roster, and If I was the GM I'd be handing him his game day 11 on threat of immediate termination.

    You can't implement a rebuilding strategy if your coach is going to continue to give starts to 30 year old retreads.
     
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  10. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  11. loonixxx

    loonixxx Member+

    Chicago Red Stars
    Aug 28, 2004
    Soccer Limbo
    Club:
    Jagiellonia Bialystok SSA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This sentence makes everything else in your well thought out post null and void. Until this changes... nothing changes.
     
  12. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Well stated, but not sure about being realistic. This is overly optimistic, I think.
    I agree that the view is dim.

    Me, too.

    Agreed, Bridgeview is a symptom, not a problem and certainly not THE problem.

    You are definitely in the minority on that one.
    The coaching is better since Paunovic at least stays awake during the games.
    As for the roster....

    That is damning with feint praise, saying the team is better and then ripping down.
    If we had Shipp, Nyarko, Jones and Magee, I might agree with you.
    We still do not have a CAM, a right midfielder.

    Accam is good, but was better last year, when he had players to feed him the ball.
    I really want De Leeuw to be good.
    Goossens is okay, but oft-injured.
    Saying Arshakyan may be better than Barrouch is not really a compliment.
    Kappelhoff is the one player who is far superior to last year.
    I have not opinion about Thiam and Soft Feet at this point.

    We all know that you dislike Sean Johnson, although I still not figure out why.
    He is far less "prone to mistakes" than any goalkeeper we have had since Zach Thornton.
    Not sure what you mean by not being a "winning goalkeeper."

    As for not being decisive enough, when you consistently change up the defense (as the Fire have done every few games since 2013), that is a problem of the defense and not Sean Johnson.
    If we keep the current back four and Sean Johnson, our defense should be okay. The switching out of goalies has been the second most idiotic thing Paunovic has done (next to parking the bus from the 10th minute of almost every game).
    Of all of the on-field problems for the Fire, Sean Johnson is the least problematic.

    Not sure there are 11 players worth protecting.
    Who I would protect:
    Johnson (although is probably gone)
    Ramos (if he is still on loan)
    Campbell
    Vincent
    Kappelhoff
    Accam (if he is not gone after the season)
    Goossens
    Fernandez (it would be nice to see him actually play)
    Polster
    De Leeuw
    Cocis (but he will probably be cut)

    I fully expect several of them to be gone after the season

    I think it is giving Puanovic too much credit, but I don't really disagree.
    The kids are probably just not good enough.

    Wait, you just said the roster is better than before?

    Other than that comment, I agree, of course.

    There has never been a question of "cash flow issues."
    The team/ownership is not spending what they should, but I don't think that is a cash flow issue. I think it is a combination of vulture capitalism, poor spending in the past and disinterest in actually making the TEAM better.

    Giving and/or substantially discounting tickets has kept "attendance" up, at least in tickets distributed.
    There are not a whole lot of butts in the seats most games.

    I am with you on this one.
    Each year, for the past four years, it has become more and more difficult to justify purchasing season tickets again.

    Honestly, I will probably renew, they are cutting prices by 10% again to renew in September. The tickets are so cheap at this point, that I might just say what the hell.
     
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  13. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    You sure about that?

    [​IMG]
     
  14. lncolnpk

    lncolnpk Member+

    Mar 5, 2012
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    They are not cutting prices.



    randomblackrain @randomblackrain
    @realmikeernst Wait so STH are getting 10% off ,on top of the 10% off they got last year.? #cf97

    Mike Ernst
    @realmikeernst

    .@randomblackrain 10% off from 2016 won't carry over to 2017 as the starting price. That said, it will be very similar. Details on Aug 22.
     
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  15. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
  16. SixKick

    SixKick Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 13, 2000
    Club:
    Club América
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Theo did with the Cubs. Sam Hinkie did with the 76ers. Those are rare exceptions though.
     
  17. Jiggly_333

    Jiggly_333 Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Mar 8, 2015
    Corner of Bedlam and Squalor (It's that way ->)
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    My realistic approach to what happened this year and what I expect to happen. This answer will be barring any mention of "we can't do this because of Hauptman," or "We wish we can do that, but we've got the 'soccer soulmates' running things." I know we've got trouble with our owner/anyone in charge of doing this, but we should try to at least think of a scenario where we have competent leadership (because maybe we will have that next year). Anyway:

    On paper, this season should've gone much differently. At this point we should've been at least fighting for the playoffs. We may have lost multiple leaders and our most creative attackers, but we still seemed like we could've recovered. In fact, the only thing I didn't like in the first game was that Lamp was starting, otherwise I liked the tactics and mentality. I think that Pauno got scared and decided he'd bunker the rest of the season. It's always tough adjusting to a new league, but it all depends on what you put into it. He tried to avoid those early loses by playing a boring bunker-down style, but couldn't get any more than scoreless draws; meanwhile a smarter coach wouldn't have given up on that attacking approach and instead address the other issues in the game (the keeper battle and a brand-new shakey defense). Our defense, on the crutch of an overly defensive tactic, gained confidence and finally played better together (except for Meira and Harrington). We realized we were duped by Vincent, but he still has the potential to get better and Harrison wouldn't play until late June. Our midfield can possibly be better, but a lot of our dysfunction comes with structural problems in the formations. Our key players there, Polster and Cocis, have been injured pretty often through this season and haven't seen too much together. Because of this, we kept moving people around in there. While I know that you guys don't like Alvarez, he's not the worst we could have (he's not an offensive Harrington). When it comes to our attack, we finally have real options. With Accam on a wing, Goose on the other, and De Leuuw/Arshakyan up top I think we have the personnel for something special, but it all goes back to tactics not doing them any favors. We keep playing a mixture of route one and possession, taking the worst from both sides. We make too many useless passes while there aren't enough men up field during counter-attacks. We just leave a striker stranded upstairs while we stay in our own end faffin' around. If we improve that by making sure we have good movement and multiple attackers available, we can do much better later this season and onwards.

    So here's the biggest change we need more of: passion and commitment. If you go back to watch the USOC semi-final game, we didn't play like it was a do-or-die game, we were still playing like it was pre-season. That's been our problem all season (even though that was one of the tenants Pauno claimed he would uphold with the team). And sometimes saying, "They're still playing like it's pre-season," is good because it might imply they're enjoying themselves out there, but that's not even true. These are going out there not giving two sh*ts and their coach is saying it's "okay" and "they gave it their best". For some of these guys, I understand that they're not that good so I shouldn't expect more out of them, but many of these players are holding out on us. Maybe they know about the sale or something and aren't playing well because of some personal reason within all this. What we need on this team, if anything, is passion and heart because it will be the only thing we truly have. That's what all those underdog teams in the movies have: passion and heart. That's what any underdog who wins has: Passion and heart. We don't got that! The only few times I've seen it have either been off-the-pitch stuff that these guys have done (De Leuuw never taking his eyes off the match while he was at home games and not playing) and when Accam got into a fight in the USOC match. There's a real mentality issue that I see. Maybe it's in their own personal protest against Pauno, but he's more than happy to be chipper and cheerful after giving up a lead and tying or losing a game "only by one goal". I think that that locker room needs a bit more of the stern Pauno cussing out Harrington at practice to get the ball on frame. It's the philosophy of being a manager, at some point your disposition towards the players will change: will you start out cheerful and turn into a raging mess/locker room cancer or will you start out stern and impressing your philosophy on the players, letting up once they get it? If we don't get ugly things will get even more ugly. Think of winning coaches in Chicago sports history and try to think of one "good guy". Ditka wasn't nice to bad players, Coach Q doesn't say the Hawks played their best after losing 2-0, and Pauno should follow that example. It was okay to be the nice guy on a youth national team, but as he said, "This isn't the olympics." If we aren't out there to win, then what the hell are you doing playing a professional sport. And if you want to win, show it. This is an issue that can be solved without dealing with the financial constraints of Hauptman and it's our biggest one. If we can get a better attitude out of players, we can still be a mediocre team, not just a sh*t one.

    Next year, other than the attitude adjustment, I'd like to see us pick up an attacker from the draft (I've already got my eyes on a few) and start working on our midfield. We have plenty of holding mids, but we should try to find a better guy to play out wide other than Alvarez, who seems that he would be a great bench player. We don't need a better LB than Vincent, as he needs to keep playing in order to improve, although we can try to play Doody more often. RB might be an issue, but Pauno seems to want to keep Ramos which is something I'm completely fine with. If we lose Sean, I would be okay with Lamp (as long as there's no one better, I'm fine with him). More/better depth at forward would be great, but our main issue will be that CAM spot. We can fill it with a marquee player or just a solid worker from the draft or other places, but DP would be preferable.

    That's my realistic view on the Fire this season and offseason. I think that this stuff is mostly possible with our current situation, only a few things are asking a bit much. I feel that if we work on those areas, we'll be all right next season (unless we pull another "Shipp Trade" and throw a major player away).

    Long post, here's Emilia Clarke being funny:
     
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  18. lncolnpk

    lncolnpk Member+

    Mar 5, 2012
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Something special is being in contention for the 8th spot until Sept.

    These players will not win Cups.
     
  19. Jiggly_333

    Jiggly_333 Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Mar 8, 2015
    Corner of Bedlam and Squalor (It's that way ->)
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    They need facilitation. They get that from a CAM and we can score goals.
     
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  20. Chris M.

    Chris M. Member+

    Jan 18, 2002
    Chicago
    Pull this leg and it plays jingle bells.
     
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  21. Jiggly_333

    Jiggly_333 Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Mar 8, 2015
    Corner of Bedlam and Squalor (It's that way ->)
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    Japan
    An amazing enough CAM can even make a leading goal scorer out of Good ol' Big Mac. With the right facilitation at the 10 spot you don't need to worry about the strikers we have.
     
  22. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Well, to be fair:
    Most Cubs fans don't know the difference.
    76er fans are numb by now.

    Mr Hauptman is trying to get to that level of resignation and acceptance of abject failure.
     
  23. xtomx

    xtomx Member+

    Chicago Fire
    Sep 6, 2001
    Northern Wisconsin, but not far from civilization
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Um, no.
     
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  24. Martininho

    Martininho Member+

    Feb 13, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thank you. I still find it difficult to crush the hopes of children.

    Anyone over 21, however, is fair game. I'm looking at you Iron81.
     
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  25. HeyFireGO

    HeyFireGO Member+

    May 12, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nothin. Matters.

    Why? Because Andell still owns the team. We can go in cricles but that's the truth. Think nuclear fallout dust cloud bleak.

    rebuilding year? Hah! Rebuilding how? By playing Harrington, Stephens, LaBrocca etc?

    Why aren't the kids playing? Where is the USL team? Where is a proper training facility? Etc. etc. etc.

    This team is poor in every aspect of the game and in every aspect of business.
     

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