American Survey Info

Discussion in 'Spirituality & Religion' started by Sakatei, Sep 28, 2010.

  1. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
    Like you care.
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey, I'm not the one making an asinine claim. Throw down anything that back it up and I might listen.
     
  2. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    this is your best line of attack. say something is asinine. that makes it asinine.

    we all live in worlds that are insulated or isolated in some way. you have your own conceits about this subject or that, sometimes based purely on where your heart stands. you think it's an intellectual process that brought you to your conclusion, but that's just nonsense. we all have notions that are so deeply rooted that they mire any rationality in sludge.

    back to the homosexual parents bit for a moment:

    normally boys are validated as men by their mothers. a mother loves her son in a non-sexual way and the young man learns to receive love that is non-sexual and validating, so he can love and be loved without sexualizing the relationship.

    tell me how a male homosexual couple does that for a son? does the male child have a mother to validate him as a man?

    of course, girls are validated as women by their fathers.

    then there is the issue of socialization. normally, mothers are the parents who do most of the socializing dirty work with their sons. boys will be boys, but if a boy is to turn into a man, his mother normally has some influence in refining his behavior. this is not to say that fathers play no part, but in most families, mothers play a more active role.

    typically, a woman learns these skills from her mother, not necessarily as lessons imparted thru formal training, but by observation. a homosexual male might have the same opportunity to observe his mother, but it's very unlikely that the mother would have the same kind of investment in her son's learning the practice of socialization of boys as she would with her daughter.
     
  3. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The early 20th century just called, they'd like their developmental psychology back.
     
  4. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Its not so much which drugs, as whose drugs."-Todd Snider

    "Its not so much which facts, as whose facts." Me

    Michael Jordan thinks he could score 100 pts in a game in the current NBA.

    Thirty Helens agree.

    The scientists in the American Physical Society can't even agree on global warming.

    I have friends who used to be gay, but are now hetero, married and have children. I have friends who used to be hetero but are now gay.

    Should I take my lunch to school or ride the bus?
     
  5. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
    Like you care.
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You need help. Seek it.

    This whole post smells like red herring.

    Val1 makes an unsubstantiated claim, I call bullshit until he throws down something, hell, anything that supports said claim. And I'm the one that gets attacked for wanted evidence for said claim.

    This is why I've gotten tired of having these discussions.
     
  6. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is a red herring. I wasn't attacking, or even trying to make a point, other than what point is there really to make? I guess I was trying to be more contrarian than anything. The post was aimed at pretty much everyone. Sorry if it ticked you off.

    Everyone has facts. In the end its really how you interpret those facts.
     
  7. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And what to do with the fact that you didn't get The Kids in The Hall reference?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZirUWma3Uvk&feature=related"]YouTube - The Kids In The Hall - It's a Fact[/ame]
     
  8. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Still 30 Helens do Agree:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMsYr8fS1Cc&feature=related"]YouTube - 30 Helens : Pens[/ame]
     
  9. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    coming from a person who said that a bomb should have gone off in the studio where Baba Wawa and Bill O'Reilly had the mosque argument, this is priceless.
     
  10. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
    Like you care.
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But I only want it to kill the bad people.
     
  11. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    you've just exemplified my point.

    you don't have to posit any counterclaim...

    ...the only requirement for the post-modern debater is to say, "that's stupid", automatically making something stupid.

    the other tactic is to make an accusation, like Glen Beck raped and murdered a girl 20 years ago. making the accusation is enough for enough people to believe it to give it currency.

    so, Todd and Ashley are talking and Ashley says, "i just read that Glen Beck raped and murdered a girl 20 years ago. how come he's not in prison?" so Todd says, "rich people can get away with anything. look at O.J." and then Ashley says, "who's OJ?" and Todd responds, "some guy that lives in Florida."
     
  12. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
    Like you care.
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Did you eat a lot of paint chips as a child?
     
  13. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He was awesome in the Naked Gun series.
     
  14. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I once had a professor who talked about the act of grading papers, and how on occasion he would receive one whose premises were so unbelievably wrong from start to finish that he had no idea where to begin to critique it.

    Your post was a little like that.
     
  15. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    It's amazing to think that the Glenn Beck raped and murdered a girl 20 years ago meme could be so poorly understood. And that's the semi-coherent part of the response.
     
  16. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    you think what i said was wrong. i suppose you have a broad background in the various ways young men and women develop healthy self-regard. but rather than clarify the process according to your understanding of it, you say, "that's just stupid", which means you're correct and i'm wrong. you've proved i'm wrong by making the statement.
     
  17. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not trying to prove anything, and I'm not even going to begin to clarify the process of human and gender development in this space, for one thing because it's an insanely complex process, for another thing because I don't know enough to do the subject justice in my own words.

    But I do know enough to know that your portrayal of the subject was grossly oversimplified and very dated, and just ended up making it look like you were attempting to justify your own biases.
     
  18. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    but you do apparently know enough to say that my POV is too ridiculous to critique.

    lots of what Piaget did with cognitive science has been revisited and refined. some of his theories about cognitive development have been shown to be inaccurate, but Piaget has to be regarded as establishing the ground-breaking thought in the discipline. so it's fair to say that many of his ideas are dated, but it's not like he was completely wrong. he didn't do thousands and thousands of hours of what has turned out to be meaningless observation.

    intuitively you can see that the relationship between a child and the parent of the other gender will be one where the child's fundamental experiences in relating to the other sex are rooted in mother-son or father-daughter dynamics. how the male child views male-female relationships will be colored by his observations of his parents together and the dynamics of his relationship with his mother. to say otherwise is absurd. obviously it's not the case that this is the only factor, but it's one of the dominant factors.

    if the parent of the child's gender is absent, ineffectual, weak, abusive, or otherwise fails to provide an environment where the child and the parent of the other gender can work out their relationship in the context of a successful, healthy marriage, this will have a definite impact on the child.

    i've never said that it will make the child homosexual or that the child will be unable to have healthy relationships with members of his own or the other sex. what is clear, however, is that boys whose relationship with their mothers is complicated by her difficulty helping her son feel confident that he will be a competent man when he reaches manhood are going to experience some struggles in male-female relationships that probably would not be so profound if the mother had been more successful at validating her son's healthy masculinity.

    to call homosexual marriage normal is inaccurate. perhaps there have been societies where exclusive homosexuality has been far more prevalent than in the Western world, but it's still a relatively small percentage. if you want to argue that serial monogamy is a phenomenon that's beneficial for a culture in general, i think you'll find yourself facing opposition from reasonable people who will point out that this practice typically leaves children with absent fathers a significant amount of the time.

    if homosexual couples did not rear children it would be a different kind of situation. in the United States it's a relatively new phenomenon. i doubt that much study has been done, and i have no idea what size sample group would be available to make a study. i would suspect that it would be very small and, as such, not very easy to evaluate outcomes. for all i know such children would be far healthier than children reared in heterosexual marriages. or not much different. but i doubt that we can say one way or another.

    you think i'm trying to justify my biases. i could make the same statement about your position.
     
  19. GiancarloC

    GiancarloC Member

    Sep 4, 2010
    LA, California
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Surprised I missed this one.

    This is a completely misleading argument. Countless studies, as I have said before, have proven that homosexual couples are just as capable of raising children, and providing positive role models for children as heterosexual couples are. No, you're being dismissive (especially with the statement in bold above).

    But studies have showed that homosexual couples are capable of providing a child with a balanced household just as much as heterosexual households. So what you're essentially arguing here is simply your opinion, and not fact. You can use old stereotypes like the one above, but it doesn't change documented fact.

    Another weak stereotype not supported by any length of study, rather simply an outmoded viewpoint that is more prevalent of an era 40-50 years ago. A gay couple is just effective as being good parents and being a good role model for children.

    Is marriage normal? Marriage is an institution built by humans... it doesn't happen naturally... so your entire argument is based on a weak premise.

    Actually substantial study has been done over the past 20 years. And a lot of it very well substantiated. You would suspect is not a proper foundation for argument, rather another poorly supported opinion.

    http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

    "Yes. Studies comparing groups of children raised by homosexual and by heterosexual parents find no developmental differences between the two groups of children in four critical areas: their intelligence, psychological adjustment, social adjustment, and popularity with friends. It is also important to realize that a parent's sexual orientation does not indicate their children's.

    Another myth about homosexuality is the mistaken belief that gay men have more of a tendency than heterosexual men to sexually molest children. There is no evidence to suggest that homosexuals or bisexuals molest children at a higher rate than heterosexuals."

    ----

    I've provided this evidence before. And it's been summarily ignored. I wonder why?

    IF you don't like it, well take it up with the APA. They actually do the studies necessary.

    Also the notion that it's a new phenomena is a false one. It's not 1993. It's 2010.

    http://www.apa.org/about/governance/council/policy/parenting.aspx

    "Many lesbians and gay men are parents. In the 2000 U. S. Census, 33% of female same-sex couple households and 22% of male same-sex couple households reported at least one child under the age of 18 living in the home. Despite the significant presence of at least 163,879 households headed by lesbian or gay parents in U.S. society"

    This isn't a small sample at all. And in fact, that's 2000. Over 10 years ago. It's only increased since then.

    The link above provides a detailed analysis and study on the stability of these house holds.

    To say there isn't enough study, or a big enough sample to study, is absolutely FALSE.

    Of course I'm sure you'll come back at me and claim my source is secular and false blah blah blah. You're about 50 years too late. Your views of the world have been proven wrong, and don't bear any relevance in the field of modern psychology. I've seen what you said a few pages ago... seriously, you do need help.

    Go ahead and dismiss the sources I provided. It'll just prove you have nothing. And before you go around calling the APA secular, it isn't. It's members are of many different faiths/religions (or not). It's focus is extensive psychological study.

    Not only do you have all your facts wrong, you can't even acknowledge reality. I'm sure some smart ass will come in and say "whose facts"? Sorry buddy, but there are only one set of facts here.
     
  20. luftmensch

    luftmensch Member+

    .
    United States
    May 4, 2006
    Petaluma
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I appreciated your thoughtful response to all this, and since it's way OT don't wanna go much further with it.

    Except to say that as far as my biases go, it's really not like you think it looks. I was actually against gay marriage up until a few years ago, and my position most closely approximated our president's somewhat wishy washy "domestic partnerships yes, but let's not redefine marriage".

    What finally turned my head around was when San Francisco legalized gay marriage, and what I saw that followed. I walk by City Hall on my way to work nearly every day, and at that time there were lines of couples stretching around the block waiting to tie the knot. And it was like a party atmosphere, all ages, colors, stereotypes, non-stereotypes, coming together because they loved each other, and willing to wait for hours or days to make it happen, after waiting for years in some cases.

    And the most hateful little humanoid "Christian" protesters were there as well, brandishing their signs and giving off an extremely ugly vibe. And all of us, gay, straight, whatever, bonded as we ridiculed these shriveled humanoids and their bigoted ideas.

    My experience during that time convinced me that I needed to change my head, and that if two people want to make the ultimate commitment, it's stupid to forbid that due solely to tradition (and I never bought the child-rearing argument against it). So my bias isn't actually that biased, and is something I only came to through experience.
     

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