Esse is a class guy who has profoundly influenced my own personal appreciation, understanding and passion for the game and the integrity by which we demonstrate our values for all to see at centre circle. Happy New Year to my US counterparts and best wishes in the coming year.
Get over yourselves. Stott Sucks. He's a crappy, nervous referee. I can't imagine what untold additional damage he's going to do to the image of Americans in the Middle East. Seitz is even worse. She's not even good enough to be a crappy referee. Just because Esse was good and Hall saved his best for the WC doesn't mean any of the rest of you have the right to ride their coattails. Why don't you all make some New Year's resolutions and improve your refereeing skills and stop patting yourselves on the back.
"Stott Sucks. He's a crappy, nervous referee. I can't imagine what untold additional damage he's going to do to the image of Americans in the Middle East." i saw him ref games in the pre libertadores, HE WAS AWFUL!! he was getting screamed at, pushed around, you name it. I personally feared he would get beat up. He obviously wasnt ready for games between latin teams, they are more physical and intense than anything he had reffed before. now Brian Hall, he was a great ref. He commanded respect from the start. I dont think i saw anyone scream at him or push him around at the pre libertadores.
Santa pass you over? I assume you were passed over for promotion? As for getting over something I suggest removing the stick from your butt and improve your disposition in the upcomming year. Being entiltled to an opinion does not mean you need to show the world just how little it is. We can take any referee in most any match and find fault, lay blame and do the "I could do it better dance." I have seen Esse with his back to the play and Brian over run his position by being too close to play in an effort to show his level of fitness. Collina has had problems in the Italian league and I watched several sub parr performances then the his usuall stellar command of field presence. Pierra the Portugese referee had the best refereed match at the World Cup in 2002 in the prelim (France's exit) to the abysmal display in the mean spirited Mexico/USA match where it looked like a supreme struggle the entire match. There are those of us at the centre circle who are at times condensending, a bit full of self importance and at times annoying. Welcome to the life of real people. You are not incorrect, flattery or self absorbtion by how good you are in the praises of others can affect egos and lead to immpressions not likely to win nobel prizes for compassion and tolerence. There are better ways to say wake up and smell the roses than to publically attack those who in your self serving opinion are not worthy of the exultation you seem to think they are burdened under. I make NO APOLOGIES for supporting ESSE in his efforts along with the many others at the USSF who work long and hard to empower there referees with confidence and the tools to perform. If you look about the world scence every country rips their referees. Please inform us the next time you work the middle perhaps we could watch and see if you walk as powerfull as you talk. The support of referees is not unconditional it is in the realization, knowledge and experiance we gain each time we enter the centre circle. Try it the view is unlike any other!
Re: Santa pass you over? So unless I walk a day in your shoes...? Tell you what, I'm not a referee, but I watch the game and I think Stott sucks: he is a nervous referee who can't control games. While I'm on the topic, I really think Seitz sucks. She has no redeeming qualities as a referee. Esse was a great ref and Hall has his days. If you can't help but get bent out of shape because I happen to have a strong opinion about the quality of referees here in the U.S., stop posting. However, if you feel compelled to start congratulating yourself on the wonderful job you guys are doing, don't be surprised if the people who watch you guys at work have something to say about it.
Re: Re: Santa pass you over? Rob, welcome to the ref board. For the most part we discuss the referees to improve ourselves, each other and the game. If you've come to troll, please go somewhere else. In any case, have a Happy New Year.
robviii, Your tone won't win you any friends on this board. But something tells me you weren't looking for any. I won't criticize any particular referee but I agree with your overall message. To steal a phrase from another poster, any referee that is worried about being "overly officious" or thinks that trickery allowed by the referee leads to a better game isn't up to refereeing the typical Hispanic game. Sure they are good enough for youth state cup play but they could not handle the Latin Leagues. I was appalled at the officiating in the college cup and came to this board a few weeks ago to see what these guys were thinking. Some of them have a way to go and should be open to hearing from people that love the game and are disappointed with bad refereeing. I think too many referees tune that sort of input out. That's too bad.
Well, my mother always said if I'm going to criticize someone else I should start off by saying something nice, so here goes: I'm glad you guys have a forum to discuss ways to improve yourselves. It's a good idea. Now, here's what I think about the article on cybersoccernews that started the whole thread: it's a self-congratulatory love fest. Worse still, every single poster took the opportunity to pat themselves on the back as if Esse's and Hall's success is any sort of indication about the quality of refereeing here in the US. It's not. And 2 examples mentioned by Esse in the article are just atrocious. Keeping the intent of this forum in mind: Stott should watch the game and stop throwing cards around without thinking ahead about the consequences. Finally, the guy needs to realize that when a player disagrees with him, the player is not going to kick his ass. Instead of talking to the players, Stott starts pulling out cards like's he's a priest warding off vampires. Oh... and half his calls are wrong. And Seitz: she's just terrible. She's always blowing calls, whether she's in the middle or on the sides. I wish she would find something else to do with her spare time. Bottom line: American referees are not on the rise. Stop kidding yourselves.
Rob, like every country and sport in the world, we complain about our officials. There are many people in USSF, FIFA, and other football associations trying to address the problem. FIFA tried to bring the best referees from around the world to the World Cup, and there were a myriad of complaints - some valid, some bogus, and some were too close to call. The problem with TV and slow motion is that we get to see plays from many different angles. Referees only get one shot, and they don't always have the best angle. This is why teamwork of the four officials is being emphasized. Cards are one method of dealing with dissent. The Center Ref needs to determine instantaneously whether few words will be more effective than a card. I rarely see cards by good refs (including Stott, Seitz, and anyone doing MLS games) give cards for dissent without a word of warning. Each referee has their point of where the line is crossed. This is the players' problem to deal with - not the referee.
OK you state the purpose of the forum quite nicely My question is, is that what you are using it for? Have you followed the career of ESSE? Were you in attendance at the clinic along with the interviewer? As a non USA referee I have no nationalist interest in the USSF referee developement program but on a personal note Esse has every reason to be happy of the direction and improvement in the guidence and developement of the referee programs. The USSF is justifiably proud of their commitment and expertise within the World scene. I have been involved in referee development programs in four countries and the USA pursuit towards improvement is second to none of them. Pat who on the back? The USSF? As an astute soccer fan you are no doubt aware but a small handfull of select individuals from around the world make up the FIFA list. The entire concluding paragraphs in the article were direct comments on both the need to improve, the absolute commitment to that end and the short learning curve of opportunity in the new major league formats. Exagerated statements do not give credence to your opinions. But at least you are trying to flesh out the complaint somewhat. You could make an effort and sit in on the review of the matches with the assigned mentors and assessors as they rip and shred EVERY performence of those referees who do high level matches with a harshness and brutal disection that your meger comments can not compare with. There are none harder than the self critique or colleague review in the post game analysis. As Esse pointed out the learning curve has been very steep on the lady referees. Attacking minded comments to me are more enlightening in that evaluation of levels of play and expectations of teams are different in national outlooks. We do not totally ignore outside opinions but in fairness to the "discount theory" we suspect the motivation. This absurb statenment could almost, almost be funny if you really did not mean it. You are correct as are others that your dissatifaction with referee performances are what they are an opinion based on what you think. Referees NEED and DEMAND evaluation! Those who obtain the the respect of their peers and in general from those who watch or play run the risk of a double edged sword in each match they do. Referees' marks indicate to the respective League Committees, those Referees who are capable of officiating in the most important games Weeding out the good from the ok to find the exceptional takes time effort and constant exposure at the highest level and that takes guts. Whether Stott or Seitz evolve into a so so, good, exceptional or even fade from the scene will be decided by their performances whether you believe it or not. But as the USSF program is filled with over thousands of top flight individuals who are a credit to those that set the bar your summation to coin your own phrase sucks. You may think I personally am defending the USSF I am not. Nor do I discount the comments of disgruntled fans. Sincere belief is what it is good or bad. Your opinion was more in attacking a person than making a point in my opinion. You want to debate facts and matches and performances sit down and fill in the assessment forms and relate the specifics of the matches. Your evaluation of a match must be different than your evaluation of a single decision, as in the pegame versus post game Do you consider the interaction between the Referee and the Assistant Referees into the overall assessment? What about the application of the Laws? The correctness of decisions, clear signals, good positioning, fitness and advantage? When playing advantage, a good player can make the Referee look good, whilst a bad player can make the Referee look foolish. You seem to imply it is in the general match control where the issues lie, confidence, impartiality, satisfactorily dealing with major incidents? Referees vary in qualification and experience - some games flow better than others. The weather, type of venue, match importence, field conditions and specifically the players can also affect the game. If a Referee has made a mistake merely because his impartial opinion of a particular incident is different from the way you see it? The Referee has to make the actual decision in a split second under pressure that bomb disposal experts cringe at! The Referee will not support one side any more than the other and will be officiating at the best of their ability. The Referee is there to ensure that the Laws of the Game are complied with. Do not expect the Referee to give one team preferential treatment - they won't. In setting standards that can be used throughout a season. You must review each match each decision as a new event past is past, perfection is not expected, effort is! Individual Referees have varying methods of maintaining control. Some Referees adopt very rigid attitudes, while others might appear more relaxed and try and bond closely with the players throughout the game. During a match a referee must officiate the game without being influenced by the players / spectators /managers / coaches. Shouts from players and spectators are often correct, but the Referee may have had already decided to award the free kick anyway. Referees will only act on what they see, and therefore cannot act on incidents they haven't seen. Understand however that the Referee might have seen a particular incident from an entirely different viewpoint to others watching the same game. As for walking in my shoes with my foot odour not a good idea. LOL )
From G-bear's comments: There is nothing tougher than stepping back onto the pitch after a stinker. Sad to say, ref'ing is all about OJT. We can discuss situations and evaluate tapes until the cows come home. The bottom line is that for all the mental and physical preparation, there will be something new in every game at every level and we deal with it in real-time letting the chips fall where they may. As Herb Silva put it at one of the advanced referee clinics, "'Brown stuff' happens. Today's 'brown stuff' is tomorrow's training tape." You don't f' up too many times at the top level or you won't be there anymore. Referees have been and will be publicly dropped from the roles of MLS. Most likely this has happened with less fanfare at the A-League and WUSA level. Hell, we've had to drop a few guys from the referee pool for the local OTH league. There is objective evaluation of referees at all levels of the US Soccer program. 2003 National Referee Certification/Recertification Seminar These are our future FIFA referees. Over 240 folks at or approaching the National level. The list is there. Some familiar names and some new ones. Nobody puts in this much time and energy just to "suck". These 240 folks are the cream of the crop of over 119,000 referees nationwide. There's another 2,400+ at the State Referee level striving to get into that National pool. Good luck to them all. (Referee Grade Demographics) Edited at the request of NSA to delete a personal reference.
Thanks for the links, nsa. I know the level of referees and play has greatly improved in the last 25 years in Iowa.
The article says nothing new. Esse carefully phrases his words. As one of the guys on the list IASocFan provided, I can tell you that we have improved greatly not only here in the states but on the world scene. No one can compare what is expected of our Referees in MLS games to FIFA appointments. Totally different game. that is why Brian Hall isn't lked by MLS and apparently our fan above. I find that when people do not truly understand the game and the leagues in which they belong, they cannot understand how officials fit into the mix and can only blame them for the way a team plays or a player plays.
i think grizz covered most of it (preach on!). all i have to say to you is please leave. until you get a badge, you have no clue. after you get the badge and read the Referee's Administrative Handbook and see the levels and what's required, you have no clue about nationals or FIFAs. as some (one more than others ) on this board know, officiation is my passion. i'm going to be an international referee, that's my goal, and no one's going to get in the way. not only am i going to do that, i'll fast track to get my National badge early, be working MLS by the time i'm 23, then when i turn 25, i'll have 2 years in the top league, and will get a chevron-shaped badge. the next time you decide you want to evaluate the job we do, please have a referee badge (not one purchased from e-bay, either) and let your name in that national list of assessors that Julie'll confirm for all of us
I disagree. Many in the referee community tend to have inbred ideas. The more input they get, the better. Even if it's "don't pat yourselves on the back." In the end guys it's the players and the coaches that decide if you do the games or not. You need to pay attention to what people think.
Input is always good, but it must have merit. Stating generalizations that appear to be very transparent and small mindedly unoriginal will not be of any help to anyone.
something i remembered last night. you couldn't be an assessor bc the Referee's Administrative Handbook asks for ppl with people skills.
MPJ334, why attack this person? It only adds fuel to the fire. He made his statement, fine. Leave it alone. Keep the talk constructive, don't stoop, it makes us all look bad. As it appears you are a young referee like myself, looking to reach a high level, let me make a suggestion to you: Always watch what you say. Things do come back to haunt you! Even though you are a faceless person on this board, that doesn't mean that someone won't figure out who you are (someone has already figured out who I am) and that what you say won't hit a sour note with your State Referee Committee. If you are going to represent yourself as a referee, please purport yourself as one as well. Think of this board as just a bigger field that the one you normally referee on. Would you tell a player on the field to shut up because they have no people skills? I hope not! Of course we all do say some things to players (especially on the Amateur and above level) that would not be appropriate on this board, but would they be about the player in the game or the player as a person? Just think about it, that's all I ask! Kidref
I say again Improvement is underway Well Put Kidref, I not only believe MPJ334 can appreciate the candor of your remarks and the wisdom beyond your young years, we all could. Sometimes our feelings are worn on the cuff and we think with heart and not head. Responding to critizim is fraught with emotionally generated answers. I too struggle with keeping contact on these boards civil at times when OUR PERSONAL sense of Fairness is impinged. Your comments are intelligent and reflect the integral makeup of a quality individual. That is not to say the rest of us are less than that for misplaced zeal now and then but it helps when a calm colleague steps in and remind us it is a game, it is fun, it is a reflection of the spirit of fairplay and we have a duty to keep it so. I think attacking minded comments show the perception some fans have is not the one we believe to be true. Opinions too easily formed or influenced serve no real purpose except to annoy those who could do better. In any walk of life there are those who are in for the long haul and those who are not. I think NSA said it when No one spends the amount of time and deflation to the ego to just suck. If fans are not aware of the cycles, meetings and stringent reviews a referee is subjected too in the climb to the top they have not made an effort to find out. Fans tend to forget that referee's are fans too probably more so to a degree than many, in fact many of us coach or play as well. When comments are directed by irate fans dissatisfied with the conduct of a SINGLE REFEREE or a series of matches they react as they do based on what they see. The issue in this is what is it you are seeing?Must we be like two nations eyeing one another over the borders? The comment inbred I assume means closeminded and not that we are sleeping with our relations? The idea of input if it useless then it is discarded. If it is good even if it bad news then it is noted and can be acted upon. Constructive input must have pupose other than to just vent how bad you feel. TEll me what is wrong? Why it is? What can be done about it? These are discussion boards open to all but with a purpose to enlighten our understanding of the beautifull game from an officiating perspective. Personal attacks serve no purpose to enlighten only to muck about and puff up with indignation, our time on this planet is far to short to feel so poorly. It is impossible to please everyone no matter what decision you take you MUST CARE but NEVER WORRY about your choices. All choice is based on B.A.D. (best available data) Positive reenforcement is a powerful motivating force so pats on the back when deserved are well meaning and a basic part of human decency. Do you go around your house telling the kids they suck all the time? Must be a dissmal atmosphere if so. Granted a referee is not needed if those playing accept it as so. A referee must not overstate his or her importance in a match as many a friendly kick around can attest to, however coaches, players, parents, fans are result orientated and competively driven. This makes it exceedingly difficult to objectively make distinctions that an on field impartial observer who does not worry about the score or result. I have refereed thousands of matches, been patted on the back and shaken hands with thousands of players. Been told they were glad to have me and others saying it was one of the best refereed matches they had seen or been involved in. I enjoyed the feeling and tried to place just what it was that made this terrific feeling in my game review I also have had coaches stomp into the FOP, items stolen from my locker and been threatened on and away from the FOP. Been accused of having ulterior motives or favouring one team over another by the lunatics that run rampant along the touchlines and the assine comments of players on the FOP on several occasions. I discount these opinions as they are are untrue. Although I act on them if neccesary. I dislike these feelings but I tried to place just what it was that made this terrible feeling in my game review Referee's consider ALL input but the importance it has is in the credability of the bearer and in the manner it is brought to our attention. I appreciate a well thought opinion and can agree to disagree with anyone about most things, however if the truth be known I respect sincerity even if it is couched in terms I rather not hear or agree with.
. i was wondering who'd bite my butt...i actually thought it'd be WB. i meant the stuff i said, but prob should've kept it to myself. but i keep so much to myself (it's hard being bright in public schools where the biology teacher doesn't know what deforestation is) that i 'sploded. i'll reread and absorb this time instead of skimming.
Referee's consider ALL input but the importance it has is in the credability of the bearer and in the manner it is brought to our attention. I appreciate a well thought opinion and can agree to disagree with anyone about most things, however if the truth be known I respect sincerity even if it is couched in terms I rather not hear or agree with. Credibility is spelled with an "I". Should I now discount your post because there was a misspelling in it? No not at all. Do ALL referees consider ALL input? No. I think MORE referees should consider MORE input. Getting in the habit of telling people to "go away" is too much of a problem in the referee comunity.
I don't think it happens. Can you cite specific instances when you had referees tell you to go away. Certainly our board is always open for frank discussion even when we agree to disagree.
Good point AM it just shows that I do not use spellcheck when posting. LOL I do not usually edit my posts for spelling I write fast and furious at the keyboards and you get the result. I believe referees do consider input even if they choose to discount it. Is that unwise? Could be so, if you are so sure of yourself as a referee you can ignore sound advice. Or if you do not CARE. Sad but true some referees are there briefly for a few dollars and fizzle out. Others enjoy a run around and recreation is all that is required. Some try very hard and succumb to the pressures and lose interest others simply resign themselves to well I tried and remain a loyal contributer, At the elite level those trying to make their spot run the risk as well as the joy in that they may be suited to the pinnacle of success or they may not. The one true point I could agree with you is, when can a fan or a parent or a player or a coach just sit down and talk with a referee about things? I have long believed I am as approachable as any referee in the country if you do so in a manner where I feel I do not have to have be in boxers crouch fending off the shots. Although I selectively tune out most of what I hear parkside during a match I listen carefully to the to the undercurrents as they maybe telling you to pay attention. Staying focused does not mean you isolate yourself from human contact but you can ill afford to go on the whims of those watching when 50% at anytime believe you are wrong whether you are right or not In a heated match at the end of a long day a red faced angry tight lipped individual is not likely to be giving me advice or input so much as a let steam off and vent. At the park level on the FOP is not good place to accept input in the post game. It is not a calm meeting such as we now enjoy on this board but a frustration level of simply being told off. I suppose I feel at times, the inability to unload on at the park is brought here by those wishing to vent rather then offer actual input of a constructive nature. The thing is AM just what input in your view is not being considered and what must be? Saying you are rejected and told to go away by who and when and where? I will tell you flat out at the start of this thread I thought little would develop from NSA blurb on the USSF doing well in the pat on the back department. I truly like ESSE and consider him as one of the better referees in the world not just the USA. My first comments were only to acknowledge what I know to be true. There has been remarkable improvement and the training programs keep getting better. If you think otherwise we will have to agree to disagree but it will not be me asking you to back off or be quiet on what you believe in and wish to comment on. Why do you feel the USSF referee program is inadequate in their training? I believe the new soccer structure for the USA soccer teams will also be the permenant HQ of the referee training station as well or so I am lead to believe. A central training centre with the bells and whistles could not hurt perhaps intersquad games with the national players and the referees in mock competition. ) It is it your enjoyment level that is not where you want it? Do you feel the referees are unfair, ill trained unprepared? Do you feel referees are deciding the matches? Do you think fitness could be increased? Is it in foul recognition? What does game or player management actually mean? Which country has the highest calibre of referees? What about the laws of the game where do you draw the line between strict enforcement, trival or common sense? Do you understand the power, money and politics of those that make up the leagues? I sure do not! if we could agree on anything it is the privately said and publically said are not always in agreement. It could be interesting attending a match together and then compare notes . Or even having you watch my venue and tell me what you think. NO blame, if there is a problem we could all work fix it, if it can be fixed or not all if it is not broken. I am an irritable bear at times but not without a fuzzy side. If you believe in something you do not let others take it away. I defend my territory because I choose too it is good to see you do the same. With respect from one dedicated fan to another