We apparently have people among us who deny that US companies and wealthy american industrialists enabled the nazis and Hitler, and at times, directly assisted the Nazis rise to power. Scarecrow keeps demanding "links" for what I have always understood, through, you know, reading a book, that this is fairly well established history, and not left wing nuts just trying to criticize the united states. JP Morgan and Chase banks, Ford, Alcoa, IBM, to name a few, were willing participants in the nazi war and oppression machinery. I can't for the life of me remember some names of books I read more than 20 years ago now. Can someone help find and identify some books and links on the topic? Also, does anyone who is at all a WW2 buff think that I am wrong about this?
Well for those who aren't willing to accept metrogo's attempts at libel here, read the whole story here: https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=17572097#post17572097 Apparently I am not fully versed in all that has ever happened in WWII and the years preceding it, and I have called into question metrogo's statements about how it was all American companies who enabled the holocaust and gave rise to the nazi's and facism in Europe. Cause if it weren't for these Americans none of this would ever have happened. BTW metrogo I love how you called me an anti-semite. Yeah that is so very accurate. nicephoras, I would appreciate hearing your answers to the questions I posed in the linked thread as you actually know what you are talking about.
I am not bringing that fight into another thread. Either you believe the historical record that some american companies and industrialists were bankrolling, supporting, and doing business with Hitler after kristallnacht, or you don't. IF you don't, in my view you are calling into question one important component of the evil of nazism. It would be nice if it weren't true. But denying it is disrespectful to everyone who suffered under the nazi yoke. Again, if anyone who has greater knowledge than I have on the subject would please help inform the conversation, it would be greatly appreciated.
You already brought that fight into this thread with your opening remarks about me. This isn't about whether I believe the historical records, it is about the conclusions you draw that I have questioned. And for some reason you are equating questioning your views to disagreeing with you. I don't know the whole story and I am trying to get it. And since you have such a strong version of what happened I want you to prove your side of it to me. I will not blindly believe what is put in front of me. You raised points in the linked thread and I asked questions about those points. Looking at the CNET article you linked, it was very enlightening and disturbing, but it doesn't answer the questions that I had. I asked them of you since you were convinced of the truth of the events. I want to know why and what convinced you when no court has ever come to your conclusions.
While not denying what you allege here Metrogo, if you are the one alleging Third Reich industrial advocacy you should provide links for it, not solicit the same.
God, you are missing the point. The "lawsuits" are an entirely different matter. I really wish you luck on your quest for the truth, but for god's sake if I have to "prove" to you through "links to credible sources" that the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776, at the very least you should refrain from calling people conspiracy theorists when they claim that it was signed in 1776.
See there you go again, you for some reason just can't seem to grasp this simple concept. You made comments that I challenged. You then provided a link for rationalrevolution or some crap like that. You are making some claims that are conclusions that you made while reading about these events. Most of which are exaggerations of the truth. Now that I have challenged those, you go off on another pathetic tangent such as the above. Well at least this time you didn't call me a holocaust denier or anti-semite.
BTW I accept that you cannot back up your assertions and look forward to you backing down like you need to.
As usual you distort facts from fiction. I didn't deny anything, I am challenging your misguided, and wrong statements of actual events. According to you the nazi party, the holocaust and all the events of WWII are the fault of US companies and wealthy people. yet you still can't back that up.
You called another poster a conspiracy theorist for saying that Standard Oil and other american energy companies assisted the nazis. Then I asked you whether you don't believe that certain american companies bankrolled nazi efforts. You said prove it. I thought it was ridiculous to have to provide links for historical fact, but I did it anyway. You questioned the credibility of the sources. Then when I cut and pasted an article from 1938, showing that this was at least suspected even then, you discounted it because it had the word email on the document, not considering the possibility that it said that in the document because the archived article was emailed to me. Finally I gave you two reputable authors of books about IBM's involvement with the nazis and a more general survey on the topic. You ignored it, except to make some reference that some lawsuit hadn't been decided yet. I know, scarecrow, reading a book is hard, but try it. Because you aren't going to get adequate history from the internet before the invention of the internet. Then when I told you that Henry Ford is mentioned and quoted prominently in mein kampf, you doubt the context, and then finally say "you wouldn't read that junk". I will give you credit, at least you copped to not knowing that Henry Ford was a well known anti-semite and nazi sympathizer. You seem to at least be coming around to that historical fact. At some point, willful ignorance of historical fact is no longer mere ignorance, but deliberate indifference, and your refusal to acknowledge the obvious, even what inthenet -- I repeat, inthenet-- recognizes, at some point is insensitive, disrespectful, and among other things, anti-semitic. Supporting the state of ISrael doesn't necessarily mean you're a jew lover. And this is an MO of yours I've noticed. You denied in the past that the United States supported right wing dictatorships in central and south america in the 50s through the 80s. You called me a "conspiracy theorist" for believing it. Then, because I couldn't document with "links" to your satisfaction that what is historical fact is in fact true, you felt you had somehow disproven what I had said. It's ridiculous. Honestly, I don't mind your ignorance. I do mind your aggressiveness in attacking others when you yourself are clueless on the topic.
I called vancity the conspiracy theorist with very good reason. He is one. His links he provided were further proof of this. I have not denied US involvement with dictatorships in Central and South America. I have even advocated that the US should apologize to the region and work towards starting over, including dropping the embargo on Cuba. And vancity stated that the US bankrolled the nazis which is quite a bit different then giving them support. Now as for links, gee I didn't realize that asking someone to back up there assertions was unreasonable. It is a pretty simple premise to follow. You make claims, then you support them. As for the books, well lets think about this for a second. See it takes more then a few minutes to read a book. And since we are here on the INTERNET, where you can find just about anything, I would've thought that since you hold these books so dear to your heart that you could find a site to reference them and present a reasonable argument to back up your claim that IBM made the holocaust possible and were there with hitler planning it out and in the 30's when they created the product knew that it would be used to put 6 million+ people to death. I am not disputing IBM making the product or doing business with the nazis and doing so in a time period before it was illegal. You also used a link that said billions of dollars was loaned to the nazis. A pretty vague statement. I am certain that there would be records of how much, and when these loans were made. Since the claim is that this financed the rise of facism in Europe, and there war effort, I would like to see some definitive proof of this. Why is that so hard?
That is sig worthy right there metrogo. Talk about an ignorant statement. No let me retract that, that is a foolish, idiotic, foot in your own ass statement of stupidity. I realize that as an IT Pro I am far more versed in the use of computers and the net then you are, however I would've at least thought that you had some semblance of intelligence and would know that anything put on paper or in print can be put on the net. See there are things called scanners, and of course copying it in to a web page, etc...
Can you read this book on the internet scarecrow? No? case closed. There are many, many topics, especially topics about history, which are treated superficially. So please, put that quote into your sig. I beg you. The idea that the internet can replace a lifetime of learning and reading (which you clearly lack) would only be suggested by the most idiotic and superficial of the video game generation (or Sarah PAlin).
You really are technically illeterate aren't you? I take it then that you haven't heard of e-books yet? Or kindle? Anything put on print can be put on the net. As for this particular book, IDK. I will check and see if it is out there in e-form yet. It must be painful being so out of touch with modern applications.
1. I am technically illiterate, which is why I don't call people morons when it comes to technical issues. This is a lesson you should learn when it comes to current events and history. 2. At any rate, tell me, is kindle the internet? 3. If I gave you an author, and his book is available on e-books, why didn't you look at it? 4. I don't feel pain about it at all. My life is pretty good.
Did I call you a moron? I am up on my current events, however I disagree with you on the extent of your claims on historical issues. Kindle is a tool designed to use the INTERNET to download books in electronic form. You gave me 2 authors, but of course no titles of their books. Maybe you expect me to read all their books huh? Or have each only written 1 book? Now lets get back to the crux of the matter shall we? You made the above statement in your first post, yet have done nothing to support your claims. Are we just supposed to take your word for it? If so, do tell us what makes your statement factual. You must have done years upon years of research on these companies and have irrefutable evidence to support such a statement. Can you detail for us the extent of their participation as willing members of the nazi war and oppression machine?? Due note I am NOT saying this isn't true, I am however calling into question the extent of what they did. How willing were they? What did they do? Bluto thanks for the book, I will see what I can find online to get some facts from it.
no prob. I've never read it, but I see it almost every time I go to a bookstore and I'm not sure why I haven't picked it up. According to wikipedia, IBM has never officially refuted any of the claims/info in the book, which I find interesting. Do I think American companies worked with Nazi Germany? Yes. I think they did it to make a buck, not because they supported the ideology of Nazi Germany.
http://www.edwinblack.com/ http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/excerpts.php [/FONT] See metrogo, that wasn't so hard to find now was it? The above is an excerpt from the book itself. Gee and I found it on the INTERNET. Even though it was published before the internet....@you metrogo The problem is that as I showed in the above links, that this hasn't been tried in court and it isn't clear to what extent the IBM brass knew or invovled themselves in this. I agree with the above is this a moral and not a legal issue?
In most instances this is true, and really brings us full circle to the original point in the other thread, which had to do with the nature of capitalism. However, in the case of Henry Ford and members of the Hearst family, their support of hitler and fascist ideology was a real motivator, not just money. I won't fight with you on this, scarecrow. I found a link about companies other than IBM, you discounted it. But it's true.
That is the problem here. It isn't a fight. You made a statement, and I asked for a more informed reason to support your statements. I have already said that I am lacking in knowledge of the extent of what US companies did prior to and during WWII. Not knowing something isn't a problem, choosing to remain ignorant is. I am choosing to learn what I can, but at the same time I am not going to blindly believe blanket statements that are backed up with facts. You have certainly helped me understand something about Ford that I didn't know, and you have helped me learn more about IBM and there acts in helping the nazis. By actually ID'ing companies and giving factual information. This is a far cry from vancity's statements about how US Companies bankrolled the nazis. I am confident that not every US company was helping the nazis. Now if you have some leads, not even links, for how the other companies you mentioned were involved I am interested in researching them and learning about what they did.