Unfortunately you can't train at your peak at altitude. You lose muscle. Kenyans great long distance runners, bad sprinters. Mexican footballers never get tired in 90 minutes, but can't beat guys in a sprint. Well Gio can but he is from Monterrey and trained professionally in Europe. No altitude there. Nery can, but grew up in Uruguay and trained in Europe. Vela is fast but he is from Cancun and basically began his pro career in Spain. Our fasters sprinters in the past decade. Alejandro Cardenas and Ana Guevara where are they from? Sonora
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] Carlos Salcido Y Maza blah blah blah -------------------------- You're on to something Panfilo... http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0239.htm ------------------------------------------ So the reason we don't see more players turn pro from other locations (going by your stat) is they aren't adapted to playin the altitude. With about half the teams being based in cities with over 2000 feet above sea level. You'd have to move alot of teams for there to be more variety. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy right now.
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] Great point Rebaño, it really becomes clear why many of our footballers come from the same cities, they are from the regions with high elevations where most of our football is played. I think the Fmf should invest in some sort of training facility that works opposite to what the housing project in finland does. Since much of mexico is on a plateau the footballers have essential maximized their red blood cell oxygen capacity, if they could install some sort facility that instead of decreasing oxygen concentration, actually works to increase it creating the oxygen concentration similar to sea level we might actually start see some more nerys gios and velas. Speaking of their speed of course. Call me crazy but i don't think this idea is to far fetched and hopefully we can see something of this sort in the near future.
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] I agree with what you guys are saying, but there are a few players who come from altitude and are fast. The problem is that regardless of how many fast players join the league, they have to play other teams at altitude and at very hot times of the day.
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] I am sorry but the idea that you can't be fast if you grow up in high altitude is about the most ignorant thing I have read in the last 24 hours. Fortunately for you guys I tend to read the comments that rednecks post on news stories relating to Mexico and you just can't get any more ignorant than a redneck... so they save you. Did you guys know that the 200m World Record was set in UNAM's track by an Italian dude in the late 70's or early 80's and no one else could break his time until the Black American dude broke it in the Atlanta olympics in 1996? High altitude does NOT impede fast sprinting, in fact for many decades the argument has been made than any race at 200m or less is likely to be run faster at high altitude than at sea level. Its the middle & long distance races where high altitude starts hurting performance. My cousin holds one of Mexico's 10 fastest U-19 times in the 100 meters (I don't remember his time exactly but its in the mid 10s... maybe 10.5 or 10.6)... I learned a lot about sprinting performance from watching him train & race in high altitude. Mexico doesn't produce world class sprinters because there is no money... the entire budget for Mexico's Track & Field organization is 2 million dollars... and most of grants are given in the sports where Mexicans have already achieved success such as Race Walking, Long & Middle Distance... and there isn't much organized Track & Field in Mexican prep schools or even colleges.... and unlike long distance where a good runner can scrape by winning local 5 & 10ks... there is no easy way to make a living as a sprinter. A lot of sprinting is form (raising knees, controlling arms) & upper body strength, glut strength. My cousin was telling me that most sprinters are limited by the speed at which they can move their arms.. and most of the time is spent in the gym doing heavy weights (low reps)... which brings me to FMF... just look at a guy like Bofo and you realize he has never done heavy weights in his life. This is not stressed in Mexico for various reasons... every Race / Ethnic Group has its own genetic makeup with flaws & virtues but some of the flaws can be overcome in the gym... for example its no secret we Mexicans are not exactly known to have big gluts or muscular upper bodies like Africans... but we are pretty fast and by working out you can increase your strenght in those areas (my sprinter cousin is not a muscular dude but he can squat something like 300 pounds) and become faster.
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] There you go not understanding what we were talking about. Sprinters perform better at altitude because they only run once. Thus the thinner air helps. The Italian would not have run as fast had he grown up at altitude because he wouldn't have been able to train as hard. East African (Kenyan, Ethiopian) grow up in altitude and dominate long distance running. Yet not one single East African was in the 100 or 200 meters in Beijing. People from West Africa or West African descent dominate short distance running but they are not even in the picture when it comes to long distance running.
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] That is ridiculous... have you ever watched sprinters train? They run anywhere from 50m to 150m... then stop for 5 minutes or so, stretch think about their form etc.,... and then run another repetition.... these guys aren't doing 1k repeats or 100 repeats. Even I can go to La Paz and run 100m repeats every 5 minutes for an hour and not notice a difference vs. sea level. The reason for the divide between West African & East African runners has nothing to do with high altitude... for example the North Africans distance runners often grow up at sea level and are give the East Africans a run for their money on the distance events. The main difference between West Africans & East Africans are genetics. Wait you thought that just because they both have black skin they are genetically the same? Generally speaking, West Africans are muscular and East Africans are skinny... and their muscles are distributed differently: Notice a difference?
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] Come on now I'm not denying that Genetics doesn't have a part in it. But that your surroundings also play a part. Most blacks from the Americas come from west african descent. But you never see an Ecuadoran sprinter in the olympics do you? edit - I found one whose named Franklin Nazareno where is he from? Portoviejo altitude 174 feet. I remember when LDU won the Libertadores and people were saying how fast Jofre Guerron was before the semifinal. Then they played America, the dude couldn't get passed Oscar Rojas for crying out loud. Never heard of the freakin Atlas Mountains have you? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/athletics/article1054633.ece IT COMES as some surprise to find Hicham El Guerrouj wrapped up warm in winter hat, running tights and gloves as we arrive to watch him train at the no-frills stadium 1,600 metres up in the Atlas Mountains of Morocco. It is late March and the North African heat should be warming our backs. He takes three steps forward to shake my hand. “It’s like in London, eh?” he says smiling, referring to the weather. “Two degrees,” Abdelkader Kada, his coach, informs us. It feels colder. If you put a sprinter from any country and a long distance runner from the same country the sprinter would look bigger because they train differently and eat differently. I'm sure there are long distance runners in Nigeria who are just as skinny as the Kenyans or Ethiopians but they aren't as fast. And I'm sure there are sprinters in Ethiopia just as built as the sprinters in West Africa but they aren't as fast. In terms of football goes, we've got hundreds of players and when we mention the fast ones, Gio, Nery, Vela, Cabrito they've all tended to be from outside the high elevations. When I say fast I mean at the highest level. Because then you get someone like Venado who seems fast in Mexico and once he is out of the country he doesn't look very fast compared to other players. ---------------------------------- At altitude you grow up playing a slow methodical game because you can't play that fast paced. You can't take it for 90 minutes. So clubs who are mostly found in higher regions of the country because thats were the people live produce players who play better under these conditions. It emphasizes technique because you have to be able to control the ball. Technique wise I don't think Mexico has anything to be jealous about from Europe. But they grew up playing non stop for 90 minutes because they can play in 50 or 60 degree weather
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] The fastest Mexican footballer I have EVER seen... faster than Vela, Gio, Cabrito etc., is Enrique Alvaro... born in Mexico City and played where? Toluca the 1st Division Club that plays at the highest altitude.
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] Cagada de Toro.... forget athletes... just watch the Bourdain "No Reservations" episodes from Ethiopia & Ghana.... you will quickly notice that almost everyone in Ghana is what in Spanish we call "bien hecho" and in Ethiopia almost everyone is stick skinny.... both groups evolved to have different genetic adapatations to their enviornments & history. If you take 100 babies from Ghana and put them in a high level training facility in high altitude Ethiopia, Kenya or Tanzania... and then you take them back to race against kids who grew up in Ghana... I guarantee there will be no meaningful statistical difference between the two groups.
I won't bother with quoting either of you because you both post some valid points, but you two also say some silly things. My contribution to the discussion: Choose your link: http://www.vdare.com/misc/entine_boston_marathon.htm or http://www.blackathlete.net/artman2...tes_Dominate_Sports_and_Why_We_re_A_188.shtml
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] I hate to refute your argument by resorting to an ad hominem but unless you are a kinesiologist or physical trainer your guarantee means nothing. If you were to take the average of each group you definitely would a statistical significant difference. Do you have evidence supporting your hypothesis? So far all the information available from professionals paints a completely different picture. You can't discuss endurance training without including altitude for a reason.
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] High altitude absolutely helps endurance training but sprinting is not endurance training uses completely different metabolic pathways. Sprinting is Anaerobic while endurance competitions are Aerobic. I am no kinesiologist just a "sabelo todo"... I picked up a few things here & there from my futbol coach & my cousin. Back in the early 90's when Mexico briefly dominated the marathon (remember when the NYC, Rotterdam & London marathons were all won by Mexicans in back to back years?).... Mexico had 5 or 6 sub 2:10 marathoners... which not even the Kenyans had at the time.... all the training was high altitude (Desierto de los Leones, Nevado de Toluca, Orizaba in Veracruz etc.,)... but that doesn't mean you can't have sprinters successfully train in high altitude.
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] What is being said is the lack of world class sprinting by our players is due to them training and living exclusively in altitude. What part of that don't you understand?
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] I understand that and its a ridiculous argument and you will not find any articles that suggest sprinters should train & live at sea level. http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=li-chambers030909&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19181368&postcount=2
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] i think if the players have the right attitude.... they will rise to the level of their expectations..
Re: Carlos Salcido y Maza Rodriguez at PSV Eindhoven Part III [R] Your on crack Enrique Alfaro faster than the players mentioned? pfftt
I have trained in the second most highest altitude in all of Mexico. Moving from the lower altitudes where the air is thicker and go to another area where the altitude is higher. The first few days training in higher altitude, you feel it. Because you breathe as your running and it feels like your not getting that much oxygen even when your breathing. It takes a few days to make the adjustment. But the kind of conditions I do not like to train in is hot weather. It sucks the energy out of you and you don't perform as well. I like the cool or cold weather.
you do know that is a fabrication from levante? just about all the nubertos mess up the old stories...tsk tsk tsk
I'm sure it was much better in your epoch when you had to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow.