Allegations, Investigations, & Bad Behaviors, Oh my!

Discussion in 'Women's College' started by Tash Deliganis, Feb 8, 2022.

  1. SpeakeroftheHouse

    PSG
    Italy
    Nov 2, 2021
    You and ytrs seem to both be missing one crucial element. It doesn’t matter if you can contact a player directly before they commit to someone else. If you don’t have the support of the club coaches, you will go nowhere with your efforts. But by all means you’re entitled to your opinion.
     
  2. upprv

    upprv Member

    Aug 4, 2004
    Club coaches are out of the equation. Who cares if they support it or not? They can offer their opinion and insight into a program but the player and their families now have first hand evidence to use. They can visit, talk to coach directly, talk to staff directly and make their own decision.
    So a club coach tells a sophomore that coach Jones from university of wherever is the worst. So what. Come June 15 the player can find out for themselves. Coach Jones can call the player directly. Text directly. Maybe the player goes in with a preconceived opinion due to the club coach but they get to decide now.
     
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  3. Tash Deliganis

    Jan 16, 2022
    I think the point the original poster was attempting make is that the seeds of distrust were already planted by the time the school can contact the kid directly.
    Example: College wants info about kid. Club now knows college is showing interest. Club doesn't like college for whatever reason. Club starts to speak badly about college, etc. Yes, the kid can now make their own decisions as of June 15 but once those negative seeds are planted by a 'mentor', they aren't easily changed.

    In similar fashion, some club coaches promote the idea to kids of recruiting age (let's say FR and SOs) that they legit have a chance to obtain money from Florida State, UNC, Bama, etc. They hammer this idea that the kid is good enough to play in the Power 5 conferences and the kids take on the idea that they are too good to go to any other school outside of the top 25, when really the kid might be able to see the field at a 100-150. So the kid shirks anyone else contacting them. The seeds were planted by their 'mentor' so it doesn't matter what anyone else tells them.

    Remember, some of these coaches are business systems and their model is to increase profit and sell the dream and that's what they do. Absolutely not saying this applies to all coaches or all clubs.
     
  4. ytrs

    ytrs Member+

    Jan 24, 2018
    Nice discussion, but the topic was about the new recruiting rules eliminating the club coach as the middle man. The rules have done that. No one can talk to anyone (players and college coaches until June 15). Trashing people, promoting people is not what the issue is. That happens with old rules too. You changed the subject.
     
  5. Tash Deliganis

    Jan 16, 2022
    Apologies, no intention to change the subject. I didn't realize the college couldn't call the club any longer, as even after the rule change it was still happening (OR kids and parents were lying about it happening) in our area.

    Personally, I am all for a slow down or delay of the early onset of recruiting for wsoc. There's so much difference between a 1st semester freshman and a young woman entering her senior year. So much growth that needs to occur before they go off to college and the early commits blow my mind. (And on, that, yes I realize that's a subject change)
     
    SpeakeroftheHouse repped this.
  6. ytrs

    ytrs Member+

    Jan 24, 2018
    College coaches can call players beginning June 15th, after their sophomore year in high school (no earlier).
     
  7. SpeakeroftheHouse

    PSG
    Italy
    Nov 2, 2021
    If you say so. But don’t forget college coaches always put their best foot forward during the recruiting process. Players on the team, some of whom might have played for club coaches are the best source for how a coach is in season. For good or bad, the single biggest influence on where a player ends up is the club coach. This rule will not change that. As someone else posted, if a club doesn’t like a college coach, the kid will cross them off before they are even allowed to be contacted. I’ve seen it happen.
     
  8. Soccerhunter

    Soccerhunter Member+

    Sep 12, 2009
    Reading along with this thread, I would agree with Speaker and Tash. I can imagine that if a coach at the home club badmouths a college coach to the player and/or parents before the June after the sophomore season in high school that there will be less interest in accepting a call from the maligned college coach. In my experience with local Club soccer (albeit several decades ago) most all of the coaches were seen by parents and players as authorities about most all things soccer --including opinions of college coaches and programs.

    All it would take is a preemptive talk to the player and her parents perhaps a year or two in advance about how bad a college program or coach is which would negatively influence a majority of such parents & players from engaging with that coach. I suspect that only a minority would proceed to take the time to interact and visit with the college coach while most would simply ignore or say "no thanks" if contacted.

    So since club coaches have close relationships with the players and their parents for years in advance, they could wield significant influence long before June after the high school sophomore season. Consequently the new NCAA rules about no contact before that date removes most all of the advantages college coaches have had in comparison to the club coaches who now are in a stronger position regarding where their players go to college.
     
  9. ytrs

    ytrs Member+

    Jan 24, 2018
    The disagreement was not about club coaches trashing colleges. It was whether the new rules eliminte the club coach as the middle man. They do.

    Under old rules:

    School A wants to talk to player 1. Club coach passes along the message to player 1 to call school A.

    School B wants to talk to player 1. Club coach does NOT pass along the message to player 1.

    Player 1 commits to School A before the coaches are allowed to call her. Because the club coach arranged for player 1 and School A to connect, he played middle man. Player 1 never even knew that School B wanted to talk to her. School B had zero chance because of the club coach's refusal to tell her to call them.

    Under the new rules: both School A and B get the same chance to talk to player 1 on June 15th. The Club coach cannot control that.

    Simple stuff folks. The new rules aid fairness, and take away the control of the club coach.

    Also, give the parents some credit. Most of them are smarter than these coaches. They can think and make decisions for themselves. They are not letting a third party control their daughters future. College is way too expensive for that.
     
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  10. upprv

    upprv Member

    Aug 4, 2004
    Yep that’s it. And i know zero families who trust club coaches word for anything beyond what time practice is and where to show up for the games. The families I know in club soccer regard their club coaches as a necessary evil of the soccer journey. Certainly not as trustworthy sounding boards for college placement.
     
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  11. SpeakeroftheHouse

    PSG
    Italy
    Nov 2, 2021
    You are really insufferable. LOL. And clueless. The club coach’s word is going to go a long way, not to mention if there are kids from Club A that already attended College A and had a miserable experience, College A can put the kid on speed dial like they’re calling for tickets to a Led Zeppelin reunion tour and it won’t matter. You seem to (mistakenly) think that the NCAA rule makes any difference whatsoever. It doesn’t. Club coaches remain the key masters whether you can call on the same day or not. The delayed rules, in fact, give players even more time with the club coach before being recruited. You seem to think that club coaches are this evil empire. Most do right by the kids for relatively very little money compared to the six figure salaries commanded by many college coaches.
     
  12. Tash Deliganis

    Jan 16, 2022
    Ytrs, I love your optimism! (Really, I do, that's not sarcastic!) Except (and this could be regional) I can give you about 50 families in three age groups that have placed their club director, club coach or high school coach's opinion of a college program or coach above their own opinion. It really is disheartening that some people are able to command such admiration of their opinion (referring to HS or club coaches).

    And I do agree that the new rules are more fair. Although I do wonder if after the virus biz is done, what may pop up as a work around.
     
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  13. ytrs

    ytrs Member+

    Jan 24, 2018
    I don't care if coaches trash each other. It has NOTHING to do with what I am talking about. It is not my optimism. I laid out the facts of the new recruiting rules. Feel free to change the debate topic if you want, but I am not engaging in it. I don't care if coaches are as*holes and sh*t talk each other.. I am stating the facts of the new rules. Speakerofthehouse (and you) have changed the topic to something UPPRV and I are not even discussing.
     
  14. SpeakeroftheHouse

    PSG
    Italy
    Nov 2, 2021
    Your point is that you think the new rules have taken the power away from club coaches for the simple reason that you no longer have to go through them to contact a kid. I understand that point of view. My point remains that it doesn’t really matter because any good club coach will sit down with the kid and her family prior to recruiting opening and go over a list of schools. If previous players from that club have had a bad experience there that school will be crossed off the list regardless of whether the coach can call direct or not.

    You say the new rule takes the power from the club coach. I think it does nothing. Same conversation. Sorry you are so frustrated. If you have treated club coaches and their players well, you shouldn’t need to worry about it.
     
  15. upprv

    upprv Member

    Aug 4, 2004
    I know you really believe what you’re saying and how you think and assume things work but you’re wrong. People involved in this world whose job it is to know are telling you you’re wrong. Just take the L man. Or don’t. But whatever.
     
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  16. SpeakeroftheHouse

    PSG
    Italy
    Nov 2, 2021
    Ok. Or maybe I have a bit more insight into this than you think? But by all means, ignore the opinion of someone who has coached club, college, and served on NCAA committees as an administrator whose job it was to come up with these rules to begin with and are currently being evaluated. ;) But you’re right. You and ytrs probably know better. Lol
     
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  17. justasoccerfan

    justasoccerfan New Member

    Nov 8, 2021
    How could anyone think that a club coach is not the biggest influence on THEIR players? They are with them and their parents all the time. If a club coach is warning a player or family about a school or coach you don’t think they are going to listen ? I have to agree 100% with the “speaker” club coaches still have a lot to do with the recruiting process. Also if you think college coaches are not talking off the record to club coaches about players you are sadly mistaken. How in the world do you think recruits commit so close to June 15th you think the dialog just started on June 15th and they commit June 16th.
     
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  18. ytrs

    ytrs Member+

    Jan 24, 2018
    Yes, the diagolgue starts on June 15th. No, college coaches are not cheating unless they are involved in the same club the player is. Kids commit quickly because there is a match between their dream school and the dream school making them a good offer.
     
  19. Jackofalltrades

    Jackofalltrades New Member

    Liverpool FC
    Scotland
    Oct 22, 2021
    I think the "club coach......" debate has come to an impasse :) to say the least. I am of the opinion that where there are rules, there will be cheaters, even if it is localized (no there aren't any cheaters......unless they are in the same club). Regardless, it is all anecdotal evidence.

    As a sidetone, administrators (particularly those associated with the NCAA) are sometimes the people most inept at making the sensible rules (and I'm not referencing Speakerofthehouse - because that person has actually coached)
     
  20. upprv

    upprv Member

    Aug 4, 2004
    In the old system the kids were committing well before there was a free flow of communication. Everything had to go thru the club coach to set up direct college to player communication. Everything.

    in the new system the commitments can’t happen until after the coach can contact the player directly. The club coach is no longer the gatekeeper.

    IN BOTH SYSTEMS the club coach can bad mouth a coach. IN THE NEW SYSTEM he/she can’t gatekeep who contacts the player or tamper with the messages (which was happening all the time. I know of one freshman who was never told by her club coach that a certain school was interested.).
    Club coaches could have opinions and express them IN EITHER WORLD.

    BUT NOW he/she isn’t the only one passing messages on.
    I know a so cal club coach who doesn’t care for a certain college coach and was vocal to his players about it. Fine. That college coach was able to reach out to those club players directly last June. 3 visited and 1 committed.
    Before the rule those players would have committed elsewhere because the club coach could not pass on interest from the college and the college had no other avenue to the player. By the time the college coach had direct access the players had committed.

    Thus the club coach is NO LONGER the middleman that they used to be.

    This isn’t hard. In all worlds the club coach can badmouth and discourage his players from certain schools. In our current world that opinion doesn’t restrict access from the coach to the player.
     
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  21. SpeakeroftheHouse

    PSG
    Italy
    Nov 2, 2021
    Im going to play devil’s advocate here and then ask a question that changes the topic slightly. Do you think it’s possible that the information was passed along and the kid simply wasn’t interested? I know all of us would rather not think a program is not appealing to some kids, but how would you know for certain your interest wasn’t passed along? Did you call the player after they had committed elsewhere and they told you? Just seems like a lot of venom towards club coaches that may be misplaced.

    Now, for my other question. Is it better to delay the contact period, followed by a quick commitment or was it better when kids could have conversations with coaches early on and take their time if they wanted to? Personally, I don’t think a player should ever be restricted from calling a coach if they want to. Why should the NCAA be able to regulate that? The rule was put in place to stop football and basketball coaches from reaching out to players at all hours of the day/night. Hundreds at a time for top level recruits. But why shouldn’t a player have the ability to reach out to the coach? Sure, coaches would reach out to a club coach to tell them to call, but if they didn’t want to, they certainly don’t need to.

    While this new rule has good intentions with delaying the contact period, it speeds up the commitment after that, which sometimes results in hasty decisions. As posted elsewhere, the transfer rate is soaring. COVID has had something to do with that with the additional year of eligibility, but maybe this new rule has contributed to an entirely different set of issues. Might be time to look at D2’s model where players can train with the actual team? Fewer mistakes made that way. Find the happy medium on the contact period. Say Jan of Soph year to allow for training with the team in the off season? Just a thought.
     
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  22. upprv

    upprv Member

    Aug 4, 2004
    By and large the new rules have led to later commitments. Players are now willing and able to take their five paid visits usually in the fall of their junior year. So the rush to commit before the money is out (the old way) isn’t there. Coaches are also more interested in getting kids on campus rather than securing commitments from 8th and 9th graders.

    we won’t know the long term impacts of this rule change on the transfer market for a few years. The rule change is only two years old so we don’t have a great sample size of girls committing later and then the resulting impact of that later commitment. My prediction is it will lead to less transfers. But the classes impacted by the rule change will be freshman this fall so we need to wait a few years to see how it plays out.

    By that time too we should see lessening Covid impacts.

    a later commitment will lead to a better commitment, both on the side of the college and the kid.

    and the girl I know was uncommitted late into her senior year. The coaching staff of the school she is at was able to contact her directly when they heard she was uncommitted. She told them her club coaches never passed along any interest from them. I guess she could be lying and wasn’t interested in them until she wasn’t committed? She told us the same thing and we’re just family friends so no need to lie to us. But maybe. In any case those days are thankfully over.
     
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