Portugal: Goalkeeper: Costa Pereira Right Back: Joao Pinto Center Back: Pepe Center Back: Humberto Coelho Left Back: Dimas Defensive Midfielder: Germano Central Midfielder: Mario Coluna Right Winger: Luis Figo Left Winger: Paulo Futre Support Striker: Eusebio Striker: Cristiano Ronaldo Bench: Baia, Carvalho, Fabio Coentrao, Paulo Sousa, Jose Augusto, Rui Costa, Jose Torres
Uruguay: Goalkeeper: Ladislao Mazurkiewicz Sweeper: Jose Nasazzi Right Wing Back: Jose Leandro Andrade Center Back: Jose Santamaria Center Back: Obdulio Varela Left Wing Back: Victor Rodriguez Andrade Defensive Midfielder: Gus Poyet Playmaking Midfielder/Forward: Hector Scarone Playmking Midfielder/Forward: Juan Alberto Schiaffino Center Forward: Pedro Petrone Center Forward: Luis Suarez Bench: Maspoli, Gambetta, Godin, Francescoli, Rocha, Morena, Piendibene
Soviet Union: Goalkeeper: Lev Yashin Sweeper: Alexander Chivadze Right Wing Back: Vladimir Bessonov Center Back: Albert Shesternyov Center Back: Oleg Kuznetsov Left Wing Back: Anatoliy Demyanenko Defensive Midfielder: Valery Voronin B2B Midfielder: Igor Netto Support Striker: Valentin Ivanov Striker: Oleg Blokhin Striker: Andriy Shevchenko Bench: Dasayev, Bashashkin, Rats, Voynov, Muntyan, Chislenko, Streltsov
Most likely tactical substitutions for these: USSR - Simonyan for Ivanov (going to 4-2-4), Demienenko for Rats Sweden - Larsson for Schwarz (going to 4-4-2), Thern for Gren Czechoslovakia - Masny for Rosicky (changing to 4-3-2-1 with Masopust as deep-lying playmaker pivot, and Kubala as main striker, Masny to the right, Puc to the left), Nejedly for Puc Yugoslavia - Jugovic for Stankovic (4-1-2-3 with Gudelj to right back), Bobek for Suker
Ok, so the numbers thing now (including Spain again).... 1) Yashin 10, Schmeichel 9, Zamora 7, Grosics 6, Viktor 5, Beara 4, Hellstrom 3, Mazurkiewicz 2, Costa Pereira 1 2) V.Andrade 10, Sivebaek 8, J.Pinto 7, Salgado 6, Buzanszky 5, Stankovic 4, R.Nilsson 3, Bessonov 2, Grygera 1 3) Jarni 10, Gordillo 9, Rats 8, Pavoni 7, Biro 6, E.Nilsson 5, Heintze 4, Jankulovski 3, Dimas 1 4) Hierro 10, Nasazzi 9, Gudelj 8, Ondrus 6, Matrai 5, Olsen 4, Kuznetsov 3, Coelho 2, Eriksson 1 5) Bozsik 10, Santamaria 8, Carvalho 7, Pique 6, Shesternyov 5, Katalinski 4, Popluhar 3, Christensen 2, Andersson 1 6) Masopust 10, Varela 9, Zebec 8, Coluna 7, Lerby 6, Voronin 5, Busquets 4, Meszoly 3, Schwarz 1 7) Figo 10, Sarosi 8, Susic 7, Simonsen 6, Butragueno 5, Hamrin 4, J.Andrade 3, Chislenko 2, Panenka 1 8) Eusebio 10, Savicevic 9, Xavi 8, Kocsis 7, Scarone 5, Gren 4, Netto 3, Rosicky 2, Arnesen 1 9) C.Ronaldo 10, M.Laudrup 9, Shevchenko 7, Hidegkuti 6, Nedved 5, Iniesta 4, Suker 3, Nordahl 2, Francescoli 1 10) Puskas 10, Schiaffino 8, Kubala 7, Liedholm 6, Stojkovic 5, Rui Costa 4, Elkjaer 3, Suarez Miramontes 2, Ivanov 1 11) Dzajic 10, Raul 9, B.Laudrup 8, Albert 7, Futre 5, Blokhin 4, Skoglund 3, Puc 2, Morena 1 First XI points: Hungary 73, Yugoslavia 72, Spain 70, Portugal 64, Uruguay 63, Denmark 60, USSR 50, Czechoslovakia 45, Sweden 33 12) Vasovic 10, Villa 9, Detari 8, Zavarov 7, Forlan 5, Gravesen 4, Maniche 3, Bergmark 2, Galasek 1 13) Dasaev 10, Cech 9, Ramallets 7, Handanovic 6, Maspoli 5, Ravelli 4, Szabo 3, Rui Patricio 2, Sorensen 1 14) Pirri 10, Khidiyatulin 8, Jugovic 7, Gustavsson 6, Montero 5, Coentrao 4, Lantos 3, Kjeldbjerg 2, Dobias 1 15) Brolin 10, Holcer 9, Germano 8, Maehle 7, Demienenko 6, Camacho 5, Godin 3, Lorant 2, Ujfalusi 1 16) Boban 10, Rocha 9, Muntyan 8, Thern 7, Sousa 6, Masny 5, Helguera 4, Zakarias 2, Agger 1 17) Larsson 10, Gento 9, Czibor 8, Vukas 7, Praest 5, Belanov 4, Jose Augusto 3, Cubilla 2, Berger 1 18) Bene 10, Bobek 9, Suarez 8, Amancio 7, Simonyan 6, T.Nilsson 5, Nejedly 3, Hansen 2, Nuno Gomes 1 Substitutes points: Yugoslavia 56, Spain 51, USSR 49, Sweden 48, Uruguay 37, Hungary 36, Portugal 27, Denmark 22, Czechoslovakia 21 Total points: Yugoslavia 128, Spain 121, Hungary 109, Uruguay 100, USSR 99, Portugal 91, Denmark 82, Sweden 81, Czechoslovakia 66. So doing it like this at least I ended up with Yugoslavia as the dark horse team getting the most points, but I'd say that Spain are still the most suitable choice to go into the top 8, and they did end up with the second most (although Hungary got more than both from just the first XI, but did fall away with the subs even though they'd be weighted less in theory).
I think it would be nice if we did the numbers on all of them. so Brazil, Germany, Argentina, Italy, England, France, Netherlands, Spain, Uruguay, Soviet Union, Hungary, Sweden, Denmark, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and Portugal.
It should be possible to quickly merge my two posts I guess to do that, even if I might use a calculator or spreadsheet for the maths this time lol (rather than counting up in my head)! Starting at 20 points would allow four gaps though, so maybe that would be a good plan rather than 18 (or 19) or just doing it from 16 without gaps or 17 with only one. I think I'll go with 20 as the maximum myself anyway, although obviously don't feel you have to copy that if you prefer a different number!
I've been listening to football on the radio, and filling in the spreadsheet at the same time, so I got that done now Lasha - hopefully you can see it like this:
Thanks - I thought I'd make a mistake somewhere and I spotted it (hopefully the only one) - Didi and Xavi should both have had an extra point (I put Xavi and Kocsis on the same number unintentionally, but never meant to make a gap between Lineker and Didi as to be fair it's a big call arguably to have them the way round they are at all...and I'd guess some would not have Kempes scoring more than Xavi like I went with...if they ended up in the same shirt number!) So that would bump up Brazil's starting XI total to 169, and overall total to 291, while Spain would at least edge up to 101 and 171 respectively. It's pretty hard to try to say it's definitive anyway I think, so it's more like a guide to my general perception (considering the players in the roles I put them in to make the 'ideal XI' if we call it that and subs bench chosen). I guess everyone would agree that Brazil do have a significant edge on Czechoslovakia for example though; and historical results show it I suppose, not that Czechoslovakia (or Czech Republic) didn't have their moments in the Euros and some very good runs in the World Cup too if we go back far enough!
Maybe it is obvious what I meant, but I should have said "nations the players played for" as opposed to nations as they are today. If it was nations as of today then instead of Yugoslavia, maybe I'd lean towards Ukraine even (whereas Shevchenko's absence made me doubt USSR for the top 16 if it's nations the players played for...although I don't know maybe they could still make it....his availability for Ukraine works the opposite way here), over Russia, Serbia, Croatia, or Czech Republic (although in attack the loss of Kubala as well as for example Masny, to Slovakia, could be mitigated a little by inclusion of players like Nehoda and Vizek, though I feel like the Czech/Czechoslovakian attackers of that time were maybe about on par with the Hungarians of the same time, or a bit behind, and the Hungarians aren't making their squad, at least when I pick it). That said, depending on how old-timers and old teams are thought of, Austria would be an option, and also Scotland (whose playing roster from compartively modern players would be better overall I think but maybe their success in early years was not as valid as that of the Austrians a little later?), but looking beyond Europe also Chile, Cameroon, Nigeria, Peru, Colombia etc (but other European teams like Romania too - in their case if valuing the 90s players particularly highly as a group maybe they can come into it).
I think the current 16 are good enough, but Austria, Scotland could make it too. Belgium I feel like is not that great, Poland could be, and if we want to go outside of Europe, I'd say Cameroon or Chile would be the best one.
I feel like Belgium's case improved the most in recent times (both in terms of playing roster and the idea of rewarding the nations with deep runs in tournaments), though Poland's claims are also based on more modern times than those of Austria and Scotland anyway (though like I say Scotland continued to have a few world class players and plenty of very good ones after Poland started to break through - in International football though Poland made a bigger impact as a team anyway). I think anyway if we go with Yugoslavia, Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia as single nations with all players eligible then the 16 already included probably makes sense. I think I'll stick with the XIs and subs I picked myself now anyway, although I had a few thoughts afterwards like whether I might put in Ivan Nielsen, or Kim Christofte maybe, for Agger on the Denmark subs bench for example (I thought a left sided defender was what was needed but not necessarily a pure left back as Maehle covers there anyway, albeit better as a wing back I'd think, and Lerby could do even except taking him out of midfield might not be the best idea....anyway Christofte would be best for left back but perhaps not more centrally, not as much as a marking type player anyway I think....but I'm not really convinced about removing Agger given he could fill in as left back and physically maybe he's the best equipped of them), or Fahraudin Jusufi for Vasovic on the Yugoslavia bench (I feel like Vasovic suits a sweeper role best and went with Katalinski-Zebec as the partnership without a true sweeper, but Vasovic could also play as anchor midfielder and having not put Jusufi in as a side-back in the main XI maybe I can keep him out altogether because Gudelj, Zebec for example would potentially cover the wide defensive positions on the right and left respectively if moved there if necessary). Maybe it seems logical to at least put Modric as a Yugoslavia sub now too, but I do think as a solo anchor player in midfield (albeit not a pure DM type) Jugovic seems the better option (although like I say Vasovic probably can be used in that role too) so he probably fits the squad better than Modric, even if it might be argued Modric would be closer to a first XI place arguably (rather than Susic say, or the alternative of Boban).
Another one I wonder about would be Ladislav Novak for Czechoslovakia (whether to put him in for Jankulowski at left back), but I just haven't either seen enough footage or focused enough on him or been impressed enough to register his qualities enough etc (so it's more based on seeing game ratings from France Football, team of Euro 60 inclusion, votes in best Czech player polls, inclusions in All-Time Czechoslovakia squads of other sources etc). I probably noticed more from Hungarian left backs of that kind of era Laszlo Sarosi and Gusztav Szepesi for example, but like I said I feel like Biro's reputation does make a good case for him as the Hungary left back.
@PDG1978 Cafú is greatly overrated by the fact that he won the world cup as a captain. But he was only captain because of the Emerson cut. He wasn't even the best right back of his time. Technically, Cafu is not even the top 3 right-backs in Brazilian history. Who's to say about the general story. There's a lot of hype about him winning 2 World Cups. For me technically Carlos Alberto Torres, Djalma Santos and Daniel Alves are way above Cafú
Ok, mate, it's your opinion - all of us will have different perceptions and viewpoints of course, and I understand that you are not the only one in Brazil (or in Europe to be fair) who thinks similar to that. On the other hand I'm not the only one who thinks maybe there hasn't been a better right back, or right wing back. The Greatest: - how the panel voted - World Soccer Maybe it comes down to what is expected or wanted from a right back (or left back). Maybe he falls in the middle between reliable players who are good defensively, and skilled players who offer a lot going forwards (he has some of both, but some others are better at one aspect, or the other one). It depends if you mean 'technically' as in technique or as in "factually" I think - for technique maybe he's not IMO either (I'm not completely sure about it but as well as Carlos Alberto and Leandro, the third best technical right back of Brazil could be maybe a Nelinho or Jorginho perhaps...but there are a lot of good options I think). I would say though that Cafu controlled the ball very well most of the time, used the ball pretty intelligently and accurately, could put in some very good crosses (I know he wasn't absolutely the most consistent player with them though), was fast and had incredible stamina, could dribble better than most right backs and was agile for twisting and turning, had good reactions and decent defensive awareness so wasn't the easiest player to escape from down the wing, was sensible in his tackling but pretty useful in that generally, wasn't the best of the Brazilian right backs in shooting and scoring but could do it pretty well at times including with shots from just outside the area, lobs over the goalie etc, was very calm but not too complacent that he would be caught out.... (So I think that is a lot of positive attributes for a right back). I can't remember if another source even showed a higher number or not right now, but this one has him as the top assister of Roma's 2000/01 Champions of Serie A: 2000-2001 Roma Stats, Serie A | FBref.com I was impressed with him often in a Brazil shirt, but not because he was captain or something like that (I can't speak for others of course and how much they might be influenced by that....but Dunga and Belinii for example don't end up in worldwide All-Time XIs of course in their respective positions despite being World Cup winning captains of Brazil).
No love for Neymar @PDG1978 ? I think he has been much important for Brazil's NT in the last ten years, even tho he lacks a good Copa América and needs to reach bigger rounds in the World Cup.
Maybe I could under-value or under-estimate him sometimes, I don't know (on the other hand on another thread recently I decided I might have been voting for him as Breakthrough Player of 2011 and of Ballon d'Or inductee of 2015 if players could only be single-time winners hence no Messi that year probably). But I feel like Ronaldinho can be ahead if thinking of 'peak version', and in the 4-3-3 type setup I had Pele coming from a wider supporting attacking position opposite Garrincha too, so the competition for those places is excellent! As attacking midfielder I felt like Zico would be better, at least in terms of passing and finishing (probably also decision making and combining with team-mates), and I put in Socrates who I do see more as a midielder than forward unlike Neymar, for a place on the bench too. The Confederations Cup of 2013 was possibly his best tournament wasn't it I guess?
Right. I have Pelé and Garrincha over Neymar too. Ronaldinho and Zico are more debatable, I feel like they are short of make big impacts when they needed (= World Cup), though I was a bit impressed by Neymar in the World Cup 2014 (rewatched) as well (= Confederations of 2013), it wasn't the strongest Brazil XI and he was still very good.
I suppose the most impact Zico had on the biggest stages might have been in 1981 (Libertadores and Intercontinental Cup), although he played well in general in the 1982 World Cup and did provide a great assist vs Italy when Brazil went out. Ronaldinho, the 2002 World Cup to an extent maybe, and also the 2005/06 Champions League (but without a great Final performance). I guess a different way would be to put Pele as number 10 (in role, not only shirt number), maybe making it more a pure 4-2-3-1 (although actually Pele was more robust than Zico and better at resisting challenges I suppose, while being probably as good at evading them or better too with his feints, nutmegs etc although purely using skills to evade them Zico might be at least as good as Pele on his day...I mean manipulating the ball etc). Then the left wing forward options might be Ronaldinho and Neymar I'd think? Although given when Didi played (which was a different era with different ways of playing too), Zagallo was quite a hard working left winger (and even in 1962 more like a midfielder), maybe that would mean Didi would have to be left out for balance, for Falcao or even Toninho Cerezo for example instead (or both of those could be in wifh Zito missing out too even)?
ARGENTINA Fillol Zanetti pasarella perfumo marzolini Monti Moreno pedernera Messi distefano maradona Carrizo Sosa ruggeri ayala tarantini Redondo Sastre riquelme Sivori batistuta kempes Roma Evaristo salomon samuel sorin Rossi Labruna martino Aguero sanfilippo orsi BRASIL Gilmar Dsantos lucio Domingos rcarlos Didi Falcao Garrincha pele zico Ronaldo Leao Cafu pereira tsilva nsantos Cerezo gerson Rivelino zizinho Ronaldinho Romario Taffarel Calberto edinho bellini junior Alvim bauer Jairzinho rilvaldo neymar Tostao GERMANY Neuer Vogts sammer schellinger breitner Ranh mathaus beckenbauer Walter Rummenigge muller Maier Lamh briegel forster brehme Overath szepan szymaniak netzer Seeler klinsmann Kahn Janes schulz hummels juskowiack Littbarski sweistaiger effenberg haller Tmuller voller ITALY Buffon Bergomi baresi scirea maldini fachetti Pirlo tardelli rivera Baggio meazza Zoff Gentile canavaro nesta rava cabrini Antognoni bulgarelli smazzola Riva piola Zenga Burgnich ferrara pichi monzeglio zambrotta albertini benetti Ferrari Totti rossi FRANCE Lloris Thuram blanc desailly amoros Tigana vieira Kopa platini Zidane Henry Barthez Bossis varane tresor lizarazu Pogba Deschamps Griezmann giresse ribery Fontaine SPAIN Casillas Ramos hierro piqué puyol Xavi pirri iniesta Suarez Gento raul Zamora Segarra quincoces migueli camacho Xalonso busquets amancio Samitier Butragueño zarra ENGLAND Banks Armfield moore Wright hqpgood Gerrard robson Matthews charlton finney Dean Shilton Neal franklin terry acole Hugues lampard Haynes keegan beckham Greaves NETHERLANDS Versar Vdehart koeman rijkaard krol Vhanegem neeskens Robben Cruyff gullit Vbasten Breukelen Suurbier vdijk stam x Davids seedorf Wilkes bergkamp rensenbrik Vnistelrooy URUGUAY Mazurkievicz Schubert nasazzi santamaria vrandrade Jlandrade ovarela Francescoli schiaffino scarone Suarez Maspoli Forlan godin deleon pavoni Goncalves andreolo Giguia rocha forlan Atilio
Thinking a bit more about Yugoslavia, after this result with them coming out as the dark horse team as I said points wise with this exercise (among the tier 2 nations with Spain placed in here as well as with the tier 1 nations previously...so Spain might have been expected to get the most points...although feasibly would with other people trying the same thing I guess, but yeah neverthless the Yugoslav total stands out).... I got around to thinking that comparing the top 30 English players and top 30 Yugoslavs could be interesting a) overall, and b) based just on close control, ball manipulation, dribbling in tight spaces and suchlike (could be deemed "skill" according to how that word is used sometimes, but I'm not meaning the overall technical qualities), and indeed I concluded that taking out 2 goalkeepers (I think Banks and Shilton would be in for England, and for Yugoslavia probably Beara and either Handanovic or Oblak) and comparing the outfield players, listed approximately from 1 to 28, I could think that on question a) I'd possibly go with the English player ahead every time (although it's difficult to be sure on the orders and also on the calls, especially mixing many eras together) but on question b) I might even be going with the Yugoslav player every time (not so much reflecting any idea sometimes put forwards about English players lacking skill, as I don't particularly think it's the case, but more reflecting the "Brazilians of Europe" reputation of Yugoslavia, at least at times in the past) I had it potentially like this anyway... Bobby Charlton vs Dejan Savicevic Bobby Moore vs Dragan Dzajic Tom Finney vs Dragan Stojkovic Stanley Matthews vs Davor Suker Jimmy Greaves vs Safet Susic Gary Lineker vs Bernard Vukas Duncan Edwards vs Branko Zebec David Beckham vs Stjepan Bobek Glenn Hoddle vs Zvonimir Boban Paul Gascoigne vs Luca Modric John Barnes vs Josip Skoblar Alan Shearer vs Ivan Gudelj Tommy Lawton vs Alen Boksic Michael Owen vs Velibor Vasovic Kevin Keegan vs Robert Prosinecki Steven Gerrard vs Vladimir Jugovic Trevor Francis vs Dragoslav Sekularac Bryan Robson vs Milos Milutinovic Peter Osgood vs Vladimir Petrovic Stan Mortensen vs Aljosa Asanovic Colin Bell vs Ivica Osim Frank Lampard vs Robert Jarni Tony Woodcock vs Fahrudin Jusufi Des Walker vs Zlatko Cajkovski Sol Campbell vs Darko Pancev Johnny Haynes vs Miralem Pjanic Trevor Brooking vs Edhem Sljivo Wilf Mannion vs Ilija Petkovic or Blaz Sliskovic
IFFHS voted lately for these all-time teams: IFFHS ALL TIME BELGIUM MEN’S DREAM TEAM (4-4-2) GK Jean-Marie Pfaff RB Eric Gerets CB Georges Grün CB Vincent Kompany LB Jan Vertonghen RM Enzo Scifo CM Wilfried Van Moer OM Kevin De Bruyne LM Eden Hazard FW Paul Van Himst FW Raymond Braine Substitutes Team B GK Michel Preud’homme RB Georges Heylens CB Laurent Verbiest CB Walter Meeuws LB Michel Renquin RM Jef Jurion CM Ludo Coeck OM Jan Ceulemans LM Franky Vercauteren FW Romelu Lukaku FW Joseph Mermans My own team was this: Preud'homme Gerets - ??? - ??? - Vertonghen Van Moer - Van der Elst - Van Himst Ceulemans - Braine - Hazard - I couldn't decide on the center backs. I think those two of IFFHS are okay. Maybe Kompany had the highest peak, in team achievements (5 UEFA finals) relative to his own contribution one might think Grün has to be up there (within a Serie A at their peak, he was a cornerstone for many years at a team finishing between 3rd and 6th throughout; before that a member at a very strong Anderlecht team). - I had an actual holding midfielder in the team. I like him the most. - I think not including Ceulemans is a big mistake. He should be in there instead of Scifo. He is the biggest omission. - However, including Ceulemans further imbalances the distribution between the Flemish and Walloon players at the iffhs team. To an extent I don't feel okay about (for example; Pfaff had a Flemish dad and a Dutch mother). IFFHS MEN’S ALL TIME NETHERLANDS DREAM TEAM (3-4-3) Team A GK Edwin van der Sar RB Jaap Stam CB Ronald Koeman LB Ruud Krol DM Frank Rijkaard CM Johan Neeskens CM Wim van Hanegem OM Johan Cruyff RW Ruud Gullit FW Marco van Basten LW Rob Rensenbrink Team B GK Hans van Breukelen RB Wim Suurbier CB Rinus Israël LB Frank de Boer DM Arie Haan DM Edgar Davids CM Clarence Seedorf OM Dennis Bergkamp RW Arjen Robben FW Patrick Kluivert LW Abe Lenstra Team C GK Jan van Beveren RB Berry van Aerle CB Barry Hulshoff LB Adri van Tiggelen DM Wim Jansen CM Willy van de Kerkhof OM Wesley Sneijder OM Faas Wilkes RW Johnny Rep FW Ruud van Nistelrooy LW Piet Keizer ------------------ - My main problem is Neeskens vs the other midfielders. The boundaries are not clear-cut but I tend to see Rijkaard and Van Hanegem as a category better than him and a number of others roughly the same. On the whole you can say Seedorf his career was simply clearly better, especially since even then the differences between the Spanish, Italian and Dutch leagues (Brazilian league?) were quite pronounced. That is not to deny Neeskens was a dynamic, dangerous world class player but I don't see how Edgar Davids loses the comparison (with his ability, all those finals, those league titles or runner-up places). - Typically, more recent players are in general just not rated that much. Fink Tank had Van Persie as the best Premier League player between the start of their method in 2002 and 2017 (despite the many injuries), but of course, this was with people as Ronaldo and Suarez leaving prematurely and Torres going into 'virtual retirement'. - Also many of the older players are subject to decay. Rijkaard is voted as much inferior to Baresi and Maldini (at hindsight, he has merely served as a prop and tool to their story, narrative and career, in particular Baresi; and how the hell was Maldini better than him in 1994-95? check the semi finals and final). Krol is much inferior to Moore. Van Basten categorically inferior to Muller. Classic. - Hulshoff vs Van Dijk? Maybe you can say Hulshoff was more dynamic, or showed that part more often. Hulshoff never played a tournament either. What Van Dijk did with a 'lower' team as Celtic (the record minutes unbeaten) is incomparably better as what Hulshoff did outside Ajax (an evidently positive example is Israel for Excelsior and Zwolle). Just as with Van der Sar (more EC/CL finals as any other GK), we will see other players in his model at the future, who then will run away with most of the plaudits. The recent FourFourTwo list with the "100 most influential players ever" had literally only one Dutchman on this: Cruijff (IIRC Jean Marc Bosman was also in there).
Thanks - interesting to see and I hadn't realised they were doing that. I would also be very much inclined towards including Ceulemans (maybe it can be a question whether he benefits from versatility or vice versa in things like this, but even in that formation they use I think he doesn't have to be 'OM' - actually personally I'd have both him and Scifo still in I think, although thinking De Bruyne and Hazard should probably be squeezed in too - theoretically I'd see it as better for a functioning team to have a Scifo as 'OM' with the main playmaking role, and a De Bruyne as 'RM' I think probably, albeit not a winger...so the formation itself is hard to decide on even for Belgium probably!). Yeah, it's hard to be sure but in a real team using 3-4-3 maybe a fully fit Van Dijk could even be the most effective of all Dutch centre backs in the middle of a 3 (on balance between defensive qualities and qualities in possession). That is a classic Dutch/Cruyff formation to use (although not necessarily the most famous, given the 4-3-3 use), and helps get plenty of the quality midfielders and forwards in the teams of course (though the system seems to vary for teams B and C somewhat and perhaps becomes a bit unbalanced or at least asymmetric). Good find anyway!