all time dutch XI

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by tony-soprano37, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    So you think we were reading/chating with a virtual machine last few years?
  2. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Didn't know that name was of a real football player!
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    There are more sources but this is the original link:

    It are the numbers after the end of 2011-2012 season (in meantime Messi has entered this list too). That Ryan Giggs is #1 is no secret and mentioned quite often. I'd say that value of assists also depends on role/position played by player. Seedorf never was the main man (or one of the main men) for the final ball in his team (for example).

    18 assists for RvN is a neat number esp. because his clubs eventually did not win anything (i.e. he did not play for extremely dominant teams - also visible by his finishing stats and the very high share he had in the total goals scored by his team). But 18 assists next to a total of 56 Champions League goals in main tournament isn't a lot.
  4. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    thanks '''

    Nothing to disgrace Giggs but (again) we need to put the number of games next to them, as obviously Giggs got among the most appearance in UCL history (2nd only after Raul) so:

    Raul 25ass/144games
    Giggs 38ass/142games (not so impressive no?)
    Xavi 24ass/131games
    Seedorf 24ass/131games
    Henry 25ass/114games
    Figo 31ass/106games
    Now Nistelrooy 18ass/88games is pretty good (especially he is known for being a great poacher).

    Actually Zidane with 27ass/80games looked like the best assister (in rate for at last 60+games)? Again, I am lazy enough to dig all big names ... (someone helps to verify?_)
  5. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    I'm not so familiar with de Munck and Appel :oops:

    BUt, I read good things about others like Jan Vos, Thomee and also Francken from the very olders.
    And also about Bakhuys, Caldenhove and Kick Smit from the 30s.

    But is hard to make room for them, when the 70s generation onwards were among the top in world football, right?
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Based on those numbers of games you provided I did a quick calculation for the players you mention and indeed Zidane with an assist in just less than every 3 games has assisted at a greater rate per game than Giggs, as has Figo marginally but both him and Giggs have an assist in just over every 3 games. I wouldn't think Beckham played as few games as Zidane so it could well be that Zidane's rate is the best. The other players you listed are still behind Giggs' rate though.
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    You make a minor mistake: this are appearances including preliminary rounds. Assist-stat mentioned above is only for main tournament.
    Comparisons are in many ways problematic though, apart from reasons mentioned earlier, also the format, allocation of entry-tickets and participants has changed a lot over the years.

    First three names are hardly known here. Think only one of hundred persons will know them.
    Last three names, esp. Smit and Bakhuys are better known. Commentators still speak sometimes about a "Bakhuys header".
    Do you know where you read about it?
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    [Will do this in separate post]

    Article mentions some other things too (will translate the facts).

    • Seasonal best of Giggs was 2006/2007 season (the one with rout against AS Roma) with 7 assists.
    • All-time seasonal record is shared by three players. Dwight Yorke in 1998/1999 (they make a typo on website but in print is the correct version), Luis Figo in 1999/2000 and Mendieta in 2000/2001. All had 8 assists.
    • Roberto Carlos is the defender with most assists (20). Daniel Alves is second with 13 and Cafu is third with 11 assists as defender.
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks Puck - good info. I did click your link and did a quick scan through it and translated the 3rd point above without translating all the words lol - no surprise that Brazilian wing-backs would have the most assists among defenders I suppose really.
    I remember Giggs being very good in that Roma game in particular - almost at the incarnation of a 2nd Giggs (dribbling less and playing deeper etc).
    From memory I can imagine a few of those Yorke assists may have been to his strike partner Andy Cole, although it was the other two strikers Solskjaer and Sheringham who decided the final of course! Those strikers coming off the bench were a hazard in those days:

    No surprise again that Figo had so many in that season and Mendieta was in his pomp for Valencia when he got 8 of course and was a very good provider from wide and with his passing too. Interesting that all the top assist tallies are close together in terms of years though.
  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I should really have a go at Dutch XI's if I'm posting here I think (I still have Puck's PM with his on btw and he chose a 4-4-2 type formation with Cruyff and Van Basten in attack which I liked the look of):
    Ok, replacements in brackets I think it would be something like this:
    --------------------------------------------Van der Sar(Van Beveren?)---------------------------------------

    Suurbier(Van Aerle)--------Rijkaard(R.Koeman)------Krol(Israel)------------Van Tiggelen(Cocu)

    -------------------Gullit(Seedorf)--------Neeskens(Jansen)------Van Hanegem(Sneijder)----------------

    ---------------------Bergkamp(Rep)---------------------------Van Basten(Rensenbrink)-----------------

    And a 3rd team in a different formation:
    --------------------------------------------Van Breukelen---------------------------------------------------

    Winter---------------------Stam---------------------------F.De Boer------------------------Haan

    -----------------------R.De Boer------------------------Davids-----------------------------------------

    ---------------------------------------------Van Nistelrooy--------------------------------------------------

    Somthing like that anyway. I'd still consider Rensenbrink in team 1 where I put Van Hanegem/Sneijder as although it wasn't his position he had the ability to build up the play well and would fit in ok there I think - with Cruyff able to go wide to the left I went more conservative in that position though. Although Puck gave me some good info about other older players I'm not well enough versed about them to include more (could perhaps have included Rijvers where Roy is but honestly felt that Roy as per his Forest season 94/95 was worth consideration in that role).
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Choosing a 3-4-3 for a Dutch XI is a good idea though!
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Actually, with relevance to the Seedorf debate I think it might be advisable to switch Ronald de Boer into the 2nd team with Seedorf partnering Davids in the 3rd team. Ideally I feel Seedorf would be better slightly from the left side as at Milan but Van Hanegem and Sneijder were favoured there. Ronald De Boer would also add more capability getting down the wing and scoring goals I think.

    Finally a 4th attempt (without consulting Puck's PM but I'm not going to put in many old-timers anyway):

    W.Van der Kerkhof-----Rijsbergen--------Van der Hart-------------Van Bronkhorst


    R.Van der Kerkhof---------------Van der Vaart----------------------------Keizer
    -------------------------------------Van Persie------------------------------------------

    Might have missed some, and I had to put Willy van der Kerkhof at right back and did include Van der Hart on Puck's glowing report in the end!
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Apart from Van der Kuijlen, Rijvers, Lenstra, the original Puck van Heel ;), Robben and others like Geels that BreitnersWig mentioned I'm sure there are cases for different players in my 4th team. Blind as a sweeper, or Johnny Metgod in that role even...Kluivert and Huntelaar are options as striker...What about Brandts in defence - played in the same era as Rijsbergen...Arnold Muhren or Thijsen the Ipswich stars.
    Lots of options I think anyway.
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Nice attempts.

    Will mention some players who are in my view higher rated in home country as abroad.

    - Frank de Boer. In home country generally rated higher as Jaap Stam. Abroad it is often the other way around (Stam his stints and ratings at Manchester, Lazio and Milan stand out). De Boer was often the catalyst on offense, had goals and assists which is valued high over here.
    - Patrick Kluivert. Over here I'd say that Van Nistelrooy (funnily born on same day, 1 July 1976) and him are rated about equal. Abroad it is a different story. Think it relates to NT form (euro2000), footballing talent and also the antics of Van Nistelrooy. Kluivert had his personal weaknesses too but mostly outside the pitch.
    - Gullit is abroad higher rated and appreciated as here.
    - It already has been mentioned for Van Hanegem vs Neeskens and Seedorf (vs Cocu).

    There are some others like Roy Makaay (lower rated at home), Danny Blind (higher rated at home) etc. too but these are the most notable ones I think.

    The PM PDG refers too was this one I think:

    De Munck; Dénis, Van der Hart, R. Koeman, Krol; Wilkes, Rijkaard, Van Hanegem, Rensenbrink; Cruijff, Van Basten
    [in 4-4-2]

    Know we had some debate about this and that I said how it is difficult to find a place for Bergkamp and Gullit (know it is possible to make a different formation which creates space for Gullit).

    "The Godfather" (you know who he is) made this as all-time Dutch starting XI for a tribute game in 1999 on behalf of Dutch FA ("Orange team of the century").

    Goalkeeper: Van der Sar
    Right-back: Gullit
    Central defender: Rijkaard
    Left-back: Krol
    Right-half: Neeskens
    Left-half: Van Hanegem
    Inside-right: Wilkes
    Inside-left: Lenstra
    Right-winger: Van Basten
    Center-forward: Cruyff
    Left-winger: Keizer

    This was the full list:
    Show Spoiler

    • Marco van Basten
    • Dennis Bergkamp
    • Jan van Beveren
    • Danny Blind
    • Hans van Breukelen
    • Johan Cruijff (C)
    • Willy Dullens
    • Henk Groot
    • Ruud Gullit
    • Arie Haan
    • Willem van Hanegem
    • Cor van der Hart
    • Barry Hulshoff
    • Rinus Israel
    • Wim Jansen
    • Piet Keizer
    • Willy van de Kerkhof
    • Ruud Krol
    • Willy van der Kuijlen
    • Kees Kuys
    • Arnold Mühren
    • Gerrie Mühren
    • Frans de Munck
    • Johan Neeskens
    • Eddy Pieters Graafland
    • Rob Rensenbrink
    • Johnny Rep
    • Frank Rijkaard
    • Edwin van der Sar
    • John van 't Schip
    • Wim Suurbier
    • Sjaak Swart
    • Adri van Tiggelen
    • Faas Wilkes
    • Jan Wouters
    Omission of R. Koeman and Moulijn by Cruijff received criticism.

    Of course, Lenstra was already dead at that time so they did not appear together or so. It was just his idea as ideal starting-XI on behalf of Dutch FA.

    Dutch FA also has some 'walk of fame' in the garden of Zeist (headquarters). Will search for who has a statue.
    PDG1978 repped this.
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    I think the problem is that many great players (at least the ones highly rated) tended to be versatile ones without a specialization (original Van Heel was also an "all-rounder"). It has been said that it is also the reason why Holland has produced few elite side-backs, a typical specialist position. Though, great left-backs are generally very rare.

    Peak period was obviously between 1970 and 2000 but before and after some are also noteworthy (like Moulijn indeed who scored against England a fine goal).
    In last 10 years producing great players has become difficult for multiple reasons (both internal and external factors).
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah I remember discussing it with you by PM and you noted that side-backs were an area where England has possibly a more solid collection (although perhaps some of the Dutch ones, either specialists or utility players who could and occasionally did play there would have the advantage technically).
    I do think Wilkes at right winger is a good option in your XI btw from what I understand of his abilities. A Dutch XI would bound to be fairly fluid anyway with players moving around and swapping positions. Cruyff and Van Basten up front is potentially as good a partmership as possible I think.
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Yes, that was after you thought about a combined England-Holland team. I thought England was, to start with, better in side-backs but also on more positions. Among midfielders England has been better in energetic ('interno'/box-to-box so to speak) and holding midfielders as well.
    [excluding period before 1950]

    Think now about an 'all-rounder' (midfielder) who was well-rated abroad but not here, Aron Winter. Has good (in some seasons even superb - top 5) ratings while playing in Italy but for Dutch NT he was despite high number of caps never a sure starter. Here you can see he rarely completed a match (only 38 times out of 84):

    It was often said that he was 'technically sound but without flavor' and 'does nothing wrong but doesn't add a lot to your team either'.
    I re-watched it to be sure but during 1998WC Ruud Krol and Rinus Michels were very enthusiastic about Cocu. Cruijff (as pundit for television) even went as far to say that he was "like Gullit but with technique and without the muscles".
    Anyhow, not every all-rounder was equally appreciated or certain about a place.
  19. Michaelf7777777

    Apr 20, 2012
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    New Zealand
    All Time Holland XI (Manager: Rimus Michels) (4-3-3)

    GK: Edwin van der Sar
    RB: Wim Suurbier
    CB: Jaap Stam
    CD: Ronald Koeman
    LB: Ruud Krol
    CM: Wim van Hanegam
    CM: Johann Neeskans
    CM: Frank Rijkaard
    RW: Ruud Gullit
    ST: Ruud van Nistlerooy
    LW: Johann Cryuff
    Substitutes: Jan van Beveren, Rinus Israel, Arrie Haan, Edgar Davids, Rob Resenbrink, Robin van Persie, Marco van Basten
    Other Squad Members: van Breukelen, Frank de Boer, Dennis Bergkamp, Clarence Seedorf, Faas Wilkes

    Ruud van Nistlerooy is picked not because I think he is the best Dutch striker ever (which is van Basten by a mile) but because he is the best Dutch finisher and the creative players in this team are so great that I prefer the greater finisher over the greater all round striker.
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    PDG1978 JamesBH11

    Champions League assist-ratio 1992-2012 (minimum 16 assists)
    (excluding preliminary rounds)

    Zidane 27 assists, 80 games (0.337)
    Beckham 34 assists, 105 games (0.323)
    Figo 31 assists, 103 games (0.300)
    Giggs 38 assists, 133 games (0.285)
    Veron 17 assists, 60 games (0.283)
    Fabregas 16 assists, 64 games (0.250)
    Van Nistelrooij 18 assists, 73 games (0.246)
    Kaka 18 assists, 74 games (0.243)
    Nedved 19 assists, 79 games (0.240)
    Eto'o 16 assists, 69 games (0.231)
    Henry 25 assists, 112 games (0.223)
    Lampard 19 assists, 88 games (0.215)
    Xavi 24 assists, 120 games (0.200)
    C. Ronaldo 16 assists, 80 games (0.200)
    Seedorf 24 assists, 125 games (0.192)
    Raul 25 assists, 142 games (0.176)
    R. Carlos 20 assists, 120 games (0.166)
    Isaías Silva Serafim and PDG1978 repped this.
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Started with an overview that includes field goals goals (no PK) too and not unsurprisingly RvN comes at top among these names. :sick: Dropped the idea to complete it because I don't want to appear as homerist here and TBH football is maybe not a stat-friendly sport.
  22. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Agree , as they are so strong in attack but weak in defense ... (weak and lack of great talents)
  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    It would be good to add some great names in UCL like Cruijff, Muller, Eusebio, Van Basten, .. to lately Messi?
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    I said that Messi has in the meantime entered the list but not at the end of 2011-2012 season.
    Van Basten only played a five games in the Champions League before his career was over.
    Other names never played in Champions League.
    I know about Cruijff though that he had about 33 assists in 87 European games (0.379). Maradona had 15 in 32 games (0.468) and Platini at least 18 in 52 (0.346)
  25. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    My probably all-time Netherlands starting lineup would be:


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