I knew I was keeping track of all this stuff for a reason. Here are as many North American pro sports leagues as I could think of (plus NFL Europe, and the PDL and W-League, which aren't pro), and the total and average attendance for their most recently completed season. Rk..League....................................Sport........Season.......G.......Total....Average 1...National Football League..................Football.......2003.....256....17,081,873...66,726 2...Major League Baseball.....................Baseball.......2003...2,411....67,630,489...28,051 3...Canadian Football League..................Football.......2003......81.....2,044,476...25,240 4...National Basketball Association...........Basketball..2003-04...1,189....20,283,156...17,059 5...National Hockey League....................Hockey......2003-04...1,230....20,336,163...16,533 6...NFL Europe................................Football.......2003......30.......494,448...16,482 7...Major League Soccer.......................Soccer.........2003.....150.....2,234,738...14,898 8...Arena Football League.....................Football.......2003.....128.....1,458,845...11,397 9...Women's National Basketball Association...Basketball.....2003.....256.....2,391,972....9,344 10..National Lacrosse League..................Lacrosse....2002-03......96.......836,171....8,710 11..International League .....................Baseball.......2003.....932.....6,368,799....6,833 12..Women's United Soccer Association.........Soccer.........2003......84.......560,009....6,667 13..Pacific Coast League .....................Baseball.......2003...1,107.....6,998,344....6,322 14..American Hockey League....................Hockey......2003-04...1,120.....6,266,152....5,595 15..Major Indoor Soccer League................Soccer......2003-04.....162.......903,863....5,579 16..Texas League..............................Baseball.......2003.....545.....2,767,854....5,079 17..Eastern League............................Baseball.......2003.....779.....3,677,309....4,721 18..Central Hockey League.....................Hockey......2003-04.....544.....2,448,584....4,501 19..Northern League...........................Baseball.......2003.....438.....1,914,614....4,371 20..ECHL......................................Hockey......2003-04...1,116.....4,366,824....3,913 21..Atlantic League...........................Baseball.......2003.....472.....1,799,729....3,813 22..Midwest League............................Baseball.......2003.....909.....3,375,898....3,714 23..NY-Penn League............................Baseball.......2003.....498.....1,784,663....3,584 24..Mexican League ...........................Baseball.......2003.....863.....3,033,286....3,515 25..Southern League...........................Baseball.......2003.....654.....2,283,659....3,492 26..United Hockey League......................Hockey......2003-04.....435.....1,455,810....3,347 27..A-League..................................Soccer.........2003.....266.......887,191....3,335 28..Major League Lacrosse.....................Lacrosse.......2003......35.......116,075....3,316 29..South Atlantic League.....................Baseball.......2003...1,015.....3,129,212....3,083 30..Northwest League..........................Baseball.......2003.....303.......891,091....2,941 31..Carolina League...........................Baseball.......2003.....503.....1,458,840....2,900 32..Continental Basketball Association........Basketball..2003-04.....168.......412,378....2,455 33..California League.........................Baseball.......2003.....678.....1,564,199....2,307 34..Frontier League...........................Baseball.......2003.....501.....1,109,360....2,214 35..Pioneer League............................Baseball.......2003.....293.......628,265....2,144 36..Northeast League..........................Baseball.......2003.....338.......662,082....1,959 37..Central League............................Baseball.......2003.....463.......890,873....1,924 38..National Basketball Development League....Basketball..2003-04.....124.......208,461....1,681 39..United States Basketball League...........Basketball.....2003.....100.......130,203....1,302 40..Florida State League......................Baseball.......2003.....747.......842,303....1,128 41..Appalachian League........................Baseball.......2003.....293.......265,985......908 42..Pro Select League.........................Soccer.........2003.....121.......120,847......772 43..Premier Development League................Soccer.........2003.....421.......211,489......526 44..W-League..................................Soccer.........2003.....165........84,235......398 If you can think of any I missed, let me know, and I'll see if I can find the numbers. Obviously, this list includes major and minor league teams. I think I missed one or two lower level basketball and hockey leagues, but I don't particularly care. Discuss.
I think World Team Tennis is missing. Also, while it is not a sport per se, the inclusion of NASCAR attendance figures might be useful. They are certainly on the landscape, and I imagine it's those numbers which draw Fox and other TV stations to pay so much attention to it. Take away the CFL and NFL Europe, and MLS is 5th overall...right where you would expect it to be, given it is often considered the "fifth major league." Plus, we get to be 4th next year, since the NHL will be averaging 0 as a result of a lockout.
All that work deserves more than a pithy little three paragraph response, so, as suggested, I will "discuss." What these numbers reveal is that soccer currently occupies a comfortable little niche in the U.S. sports firmament. MLS is posting respectable numbers, and the A-League is putting up numbers comparable with AA baseball. I suppose the question is: will MLS survive at these levels? Although it has lunged for "national" acceptance many times in the past 35 years or so, I think the NHL has always recognized that it is a "niche" sport--it is well-supported in the cities where it has placed teams, but there is not much of a national demand for the product. This effects not only TV ratings (which are anemic), but also merchandise sales and other potential revenue streams. Still, up until very recently, the NHL has been able to survive--even thrive--as the "fourth" sport. It may have been nonexistent on TV, urban kids weren't wearing sweaters, and no one was buying hockey cards, but it did just fine. Its recent problems have more to do with the delfated Canadian dollar and the fact that some franchises forgot that they were participating in a "niche" league and spent like they were receiving NFL TV money than any "failure" of the game. (As a longtime hockey fan, I also acknowledge that the game is far less pleasing asthetically than it was 10 years ago, but I think of that as more of a potential issue, and not a current one). Anyway, the NHL teams had several advantages over MLS, even as they courted similar sized niches. The big one was the control over revenue streams--NHL teams either owned their arenas or, as primary tenants, received favorable lease arrangements. While MLS fans may wish for EPL sized crowds, I think the league itself recognizes that, for the here and now, it is still a "niche" game--soccer is not the "national pastime" that baseball is/was, it is not the "national obsession" of football, and it is not the "showtime" product of the NBA. For the foreseeable future, it is a 14,000 per game league. The league knows this, and has tried to work within those limits, avoiding the mistakes of the NASL in the process. With SSSs, it is taking a significant stride towards collecting the type of moneys the NHL has been surviving on for years (and, make no mistake--MLS always knew this was a priority. Back in 1994 or so, when the league was solicitng bids from cities for teams, one of the original requirements was that the team have its own, soccer specific stadium. Only when it became clear that no one was willing to make such an up-front commitment did MLS settle for the "football stadiums with drapes" concept.) I do think, however, that MLS has more potential for future growth than the NHL ever did. It is a sport that everyone has played growing up (if you were born after 1980, and that's a conservative guess) as opposed to hockey--even with the roller and ice hockey boom in the suburbs, I still think that hockey is a game more foreign to Americans than soccer is. I think soccer players are more marketable, since you can actually see their faces, so MLS can potentially get more out of their stars. Soccer jerseys are more practical casual attire than hockey sweaters. The possibilites are endless. Note I am not parroting the tired old "millions of kids play soccer, so millions will watch" line. I am not saying participation is a prerequisite to interest in a sport; indeed, the NHL has done well in cities like Philadelphia where, until recently, the youth hockey scene was both small and exclusive. But I do think that the fact that many more people have grown up playing soccer than in the days of the NASL removes a considerable obstacle to "acceptance" of the game on a national level. Anyway, I'm not sure this was the discussion you were looking for, but there you go.
All this time I've been amazed how Kenn knocks everyone who dares to compare one league's attendance to another league's attendance. Kudos, kido, on the master of "look at me, I need attention" thread I suppose there would be some relevance in comparing soccer leagues around the world (although you would strongly disagree), but comparing MLS to NFL Europe ???
Not quite. 61,417 - attendance at Nebraska's intrasquad football game last Saturday. (Source: SI) P.S. Nebraska sold out every single game since Nov. 3, 1962. Memorial Stadium's capacity has been increased to 73,650 in 1970 (or 1971).
Impressive...except that the bulk of Kenn's list is comprised of professional sports leagues (and the amateur leagues he included are perceived as professional--I, for one, did not know NFL Europe was not). So, on that list, MLS would still be 5th, and will be 4th should the NHL lock out the players. Everyone knows certain college football teams draw huge numbers. Always have...even in the early part of the century, when soccer was the second highest drawing professional team sport, it was being eclipsed by college football. The elite college football programs outdraw everybody. So I don't quite see your point.
Partly because college football does not and cannot restrict TV coverage based on attendance and "you can't play at these times on these days" as Congress does with the NFL (Federal Laws). Otherwise, many NFL teams would have stadiums pushing 100,000 capacity.
What federal laws restrict the NFL? What federal law restricts NFL TV coverage? What federal law restricts times and days on which the NFL can play? I have no idea what you are talking about. And I have some familiarity with federal law. And if you think NFL teams would average 100,000 but for all these "restrictions," I think you are not taking into account the whole rah rah "go team" college mentality, or the fact that it is a campus event. These intangibles simply do not exist at the professional level.
Oh, sigh. The difference is I wasn't trying to draw any conclusions, asshat. I was just presenting the data. You decide what to make of it. Or, at least, you could decide what to make of it, if you had a brain. Since you can't grasp the concept being expressed here, we can't have a conversation. You might ask yourself who needs attention more? Someone who goes away for months at a time, has started (I believe) two threads since he's been back, whose username is is own name (everyone knows who I am) and doesn't whine and start another username when one gets b!tchslapped, or someone who says he'll never come back (because of someone b!tchslapping him), starts useless threads to try to be a cool guy, doesn't add anything to discussions, and mixes and matches usernames depending on which one hasn't been crushed lately. You might ask yourself who's more respected here, you or me? You might ask yourself these questions, and others, but what you should really ask yourself is, "Why do I have this obsessive need to do this, to come back again and again and again under different usernames, starting threads and then telling the administrators of boards that they have me to thank for their page views and revenues?" You might ask yourself why Bergin's site hasn't gone under yet, since he banned your attention whore ass months ago. You know, besides Flannigan and SoccerScout, who have pretty much retired the trophy, I've never seen someone get b!tchslapped so many times, yet remain relentless in the face of being proven wrong over and over and over again. And since it has happened under multiple usernames, you get the Lifetime Achievement Award. You just get crushed over and over. Not just proven wrong - not just beaten - but crushed. You are useless. You have nothing to add. If your stupidity was a horse, it would be Secretariat. If your stupidity was a baseball player, it would be Barry Bonds. Your stupidity is unbelievable. Why don't you stick to one name when one gets smacked? Why don't you ever learn when someone points out how wrong and stupid you are? Why can you not get the things through your head that the rest of us try to educate you on? It's because you're a moron. You're a sad little man who whines and cries and runs away when he's not appreciated, and then comes back as someone else. But it doesn't matter, because you're so fricking transparent - you spout the same crap in the same forums in the same style over and over and everyone can tell it's you. Let me tell you this, Mr. 10MetroStars10/MetroStars4Life/MLS_Stats/Soccer_KC/KarmaFemale/NY_Cosmos: You want a war on the boards? Pack a lunch, moron - it's going to be a week-long seminar. Because you don't have what it takes to compete with me. And even though I'm a huge jerk, people here would rather read what I have to say all day than even think about what you have to say. I add to the discussion around here. You just want desperately to sit at the cool kids' table because you are nothing.
holy sh!t.... speechless I am...That's some legendary junk right there... Bravo kenn, bravo. Nice to have you back on the boards
In the 1960's when the NFL wanted to negotiate with TV networks exclusively as a single entity, without individual teams making any local deals, this violated the Sherman Antitrust Act, so they had to ask Congress to pass a bill that gave them an exception. In order to get the votes of members from areas where high school and/or college football was huge, the NFL made an agreement to not play on Friday nights, nor on Saturdays before the end of college football's season. I don't know if this agreement is still legally binding, but they still schedule that way, though I don't think this is a problem for the NFL's attendance. There certainly are NFL teams that could draw 100,000 or more, but the NFL's blackout rule does discourage teams from building stadiums that big. Teams are afraid that, even if their current popularity is strong enough to draw those crowds, a few bad years could cause demand to drop, and then they get blacked out even if they can still draw 85,000. A super-popular team with a 75,000 capacity has much more ability to sustain sellouts through the bad years (and can jack up the ticket prices when demand far exceeds supply during the good years).
Now that you mentioned it, I do recall hearing this. Congress did not pass laws, per se, however, which is probably why it didn't spring to mind when the other poster mentioned "Federal law." Thanks for setting me straight.
I have to admit, you do have an official website (as if there were millions of unofficial ones), but does really everyone know you are? I would bet that not everyone knows who Monica Lewinsky is, but I might be wrong. P.S. Be sure to check your blood pressure every few weeks.
Yes, my mistake. Rumor is the NFL will, however, take a look at playing on Thursday Nights starting in the next TV deal, as well as at least one more game on both Sunday and Monday Nights.
Here was the point of the exercise, kids, for the very few of you who didn't grasp it at first: This was not an attempt to compare MLS attendance to that of NFL Europe or anything else. I would have put it in MLS N&A if it was about that. It's in Business & Media because it's an attempt to lend some facts to the discussions that crop up from time to time about this league's attendance or that league's attendance. Now you have a list from top to bottom of all the leagues I could think of. If you want to compare the NFL to Major League Lacrosse, be my guest. Just do so with the usual caveats. I think it's an interesting (and perhaps useful) list of where things rank in this country (and, in a couple of cases, other countries) in terms of this one indication of relative popularity. We use all sorts of things to try and determine relative popularity - attendance, TV ratings, merchandise sales, books, films, pop culture references and probably some others - but, like anything we do, you need to give everything its proper weight. You have the numbers. That's what the list is for. Do with it what you will.